[Signing] Flames sign Huberdeau to long term extension (8 yrs, $10.5 mil AAV)

[Strange Brew]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

I say this over and over, and am too lazy to go and find the posters, but a whole bunch of people here said the trade was a failure UNLESS Huberdeau signed long term.

I guess some people were wrong. Do you expect them to continue to defend their previous opinion or is it OK to see how things turned out and realize that a rather large mistake was made?

[blankall]

Originally Posted by The Cobra

I just read through too much of the thread. I just that unless you have a strong stomach to pass on it.

Way too many wrong statements by the vast majority of posters.

I think it's hard to criticize Treliving when the majority of posters were ready to erect a statute of him for the Huberdeau signing. I get it's his job to know the difference, but Huberdeau's fall from grace was unprecedented.

Lots of bad luck here.

We always knew that the window for the Flames was likely 4ish years when Huberdeau was acquired. Huberdeau having (is it a record) perhaps one of the greatest decreases in year over year points and Markstrom sucking resulted in the Flames missing the playoffs. Without those two things happening the Flames go on a Sutter playoff run. Maybe win 1-2 series in that year, and the team's makeup is totally different. Right now the Flames would be looking to take advantage of cap space to pick up UFAS for the last couple of years of their window.

Sutter was not the best coach to handle a mentally fragile team. His answer was always run it out again, but work harder this time.

Too many posters are making massive conclusions about the right and wrong moves. In the modern parity NHL, the line between contender and loser is thin. People are upset with the Huberdeau contract, because we were supposed to get a first half of good years, followed by a decline, during our rebuild. No good years so far, we're in a rebuild now, and Huberdeau will be declining and a cap anchor when the team is competing. A lot of the criticism is hindsight though.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by blankall

Tkachuk had a very narrow list of teams he would go to. They all weren't necessarily winners. He clearly wanted to go to an American city with low taxes and low Covid restrictions.

He was likely pissed off at the franchise for not handing him the captaincy, or at least a large leadership role, either. From his point of view that likely destroyed a lot of the two-way loyalty. I doubt Tkachuk and Sutter were best friends either.

From all accounts the double wammy of Sutter in the day and Covid restrictions in the off time was a horrible way to live.

I don't think there were that many issues with roster construction. From all accounts, Tkachuk got along with many players. He continues to hang out with some of them. As far as roster construction, Gaudreau leaving was likely a major factor. Tkachuk's numbers were likely to suffer not playing with Gaudreau, and he knew that.

If Gaudreau stays, Tkachuk is given a big contract and captaincy in Calgary, and Covid doesn't happen, Tkachuk is a life long Calgary Flame.

Yeah, it's pretty clear from reports that Tkachuk didn't like covid restrictions. His list of teams was pretty telling about his goals. They weren't necessarily "I want a winner", but all involved either low taxes, NYC, warm/fun spots or "hometown". They weren't all teams on the edge of winning (they eincluded NYR and NJD) And he was definitely not a Sutter guy.

[TOfan]

Originally Posted by Cobra

Did you ever think why Tkachuk wanted out?
Could it be that his Dad and himself saw how the roster was constucted by the GM and thought we better get off this sinking ship.

Did I ever think why Tkachuk wanted out? Yeah, I did. Did you? Because your two cent theory doesn’t seem to add up. The Glames in 21/22 were a much stronger team than, say, the Ottawa Senators.

There were likely several reasons. Seems like many here want to point the finger at one person, and, frankly, that’s absurd boarding on stupid. To think Brad Treliving could have controlled that is also flirting with stupid.

[TOfan]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

Yeah, it's pretty clear from reports that Tkachuk didn't like covid restrictions. His list of teams was pretty telling about his goals. They weren't necessarily "I want a winner", but all involved either low taxes, NYC, warm/fun spots or "hometown". They weren't all teams on the edge of winning (they eincluded NYR and NJD) And he was definitely not a Sutter guy.

True.

I also suspect he had places on his list that he thought he might want to retire and live in. Miami being at/near the top of the list.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by Strange Brew

I guess some people were wrong. Do you expect them to continue to defend their previous opinion or is it OK to see how things turned out and realize that a rather large mistake was made?

It's fine to say "I was wrong". And no, I don't expect them to defend that position. I do think it's hypocritical for those people to say the contract was an obvious mistake at the time. Treliving had two stars leaving. He replaced Gaudreau with someone of a similar age who he figured could do the same job based on stats, and paid that guy the contract being offered to Gaudreau. He replaced the other with the rest of the return - a first round pick, a star defenceman and a middling prospect. Then he tried to fill in the loss of Tkachuk up front by making the moves to get Kadri.

[Cobra]

Originally Posted by TOfan

Did I ever think why Tkachuk wanted out? Yeah, I did. There were likely several reasons. Seems like many here want to point the finger at one person, and, frankly, that’s absurd boarding on stupid. To think Brad Treliving could have controlled that is also flirting with stupid.

I see why you like Brad.....same hockey IQ.
Here is a fact for you....since Tkachuk left Flames have missed the playoffs 2 years in row.
Panthers the team Tkachuk plays on now has been to the Cup final twice and now is a Stanley Cup Champion.

[The Cobra]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

It's fine to say "I was wrong". And no, I don't expect them to defend that position. I do think it's hypocritical for those people to say the contract was an obvious mistake at the time. Treliving had two stars leaving. He replaced Gaudreau with someone of a similar age who he figured could do the same job based on stats, and paid that guy the contract being offered to Gaudreau. He replaced the other with the rest of the return - a first round pick, a star defenceman and a middling prospect. Then he tried to fill in the loss of Tkachuk up front by making the moves to get Kadri.

The large majority of posters thought Treliving had done a spectacular job at the time, and many of those same posters are ready to hang him for such a terrible job he did.

Now, the only justification would be that "Treliving should know better, that's his job". There is some truth to that.

But those same posters in he future, when voicing a hockey opinion about moves the GM is doing they don't agree with, should qualify their post my saying "Warning, I may not know what I'm talking about, because its not my job".

I thought Treliving had done a great job with the hand he was dealt, although I didn't like that he didn't sign Tkachuk long term when he had the chance years ago. So, I would have difficulty criticizing him now.

[TOfan]

Originally Posted by The Cobra

The large majority of posters thought Treliving had done a spectacular job at the time, and many of those same posters are ready to hang him for such a terrible job he did.

Now, the only justification would be that "Treliving should know better, that's his job". There is some truth to that.

But those same posters in he future, when voicing a hockey opinion about moves the GM is doing they don't agree with, should qualify their post my saying "Warning, I may not know what I'm talking about, because its not my job".

I thought Treliving had done a great job with the hand he was dealt, although I didn't like that he didn't sign Tkachuk long term when he had the chance years ago. So, I would have difficulty criticizing him now.

I think you also need to take into account what the direction from ownership was. Was Treliving even allowed to pull the trigger on the rumoured Carolina package? Believe it was Necas, a first and a D?

Based on the history of how this organization carries itsrlf, I bet once Florida came in with their offer and how the Flames saw that as a way to stay competitive after their best season in years/decades there really was no decision. It was the Florida package all day long, without much consideration otherwise.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by The Cobra

The large majority of posters thought Treliving had done a spectacular job at the time, and many of those same posters are ready to hang him for such a terrible job he did.

Now, the only justification would be that "Treliving should know better, that's his job". There is some truth to that.

But those same posters in he future, when voicing a hockey opinion about moves the GM is doing they don't agree with, should qualify their post my saying "Warning, I may not know what I'm talking about, because its not my job".

I thought Treliving had done a great job with the hand he was dealt, although I didn't like that he didn't sign Tkachuk long term when he had the chance years ago. So, I would have difficulty criticizing him now.

Yes, and I think that the long term Tkachuk signing would have involved (a) a price bigger than a lot of people here would have agreed with at the time and (b) would not have been anything like 8 years. People were already thinking the $9M QO was rich for what Tkachuk had done to that point. (around a 70 point pace more or less). I think a new deal would have been 5 years at $10M.

[Locke]

Originally Posted by DeluxeMoustache

He will ruin your team like he ruined the Flames

Enjoy the process

Alright. I got a chuckle out of that one.

[The Cobra]

Originally Posted by TOfan

I think you also need to take into account what the direction from ownership was. Was Treliving even allowed to pull the trigger on the rumoured Carolina package? Believe it was Necas, a first and a D?

Based on the history of how this organization carries itsrlf, I bet once Florida came in with their offer and how the Flames saw that as a way to stay competitive after their best season in years/decades there really was no decision. It was the Florida package all day long, without much consideration otherwise.

I think this is 100% correct.

Conroy didn't come up with the rebuild idea on his own, there was no choice.

Treliving could not have rebuilt if he wanted to.

[The Cobra]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

Yes, and I think that the long term Tkachuk signing would have involved (a) a price bigger than a lot of people here would have agreed with at the time and (b) would not have been anything like 8 years. People were already thinking the $9M QO was rich for what Tkachuk had done to that point. (around a 70 point pace more or less). I think a new deal would have been 5 years at $10M.

I know we have no idea, but I think he would have signed for 8 years if the money was right (say $9.5M), as the Tkachuk's always took the money if offered. Tkachuk was liking Calgary at that time.

[TOfan]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

Yes, and I think that the long term Tkachuk signing would have involved (a) a price bigger than a lot of people here would have agreed with at the time and (b) would not have been anything like 8 years. People were already thinking the $9M QO was rich for what Tkachuk had done to that point. (around a 70 point pace more or less). I think a new deal would have been 5 years at $10M.

I also think people have this fallacy that had Treliving signed Tkachuk to an 8 year deal (skeptical Tkachuk would have signed for that term) that Tkachuk then everything would have been happily ever after.

I think it’s far more likely Tkachuk had a long term vision of playing in the US in his choice of teams at some point and very few things would have changed that, certainly not a contract offered by the Flames short of making him one of the highest paid players in the league. And even then, I’m not convinced he would have signed for 8 years.

[TOfan]

Originally Posted by The Cobra

I know we have no idea, but I think he would have signed for 8 years if the money was right (say $9.5M), as the Tkachuk's always took the money if offered. Tkachuk was liking Calgary at that time.

I’m sure Tkachuk liked it here just fine, but I think his long term vision was always south of the boarder. And once covid hit, and to a lesser extent, Sutter, he was as good as gone.

[Locke]

Originally Posted by TOfan

I also think people have this fallacy that had Treliving signed Tkachuk to an 8 year deal (skeptical Tkachuk would have signed for that term) that Tkachuk then everything would have been happily ever after.

I think it’s far more likely Tkachuk had a long term vision of playing in the US in his choice of teams at some point and very few things would have changed that, certainly not a contract offered by the Flames short of making him one of the highest paid players in the league. And even then, I’m not convinced he would have signed for 8 years.

Okay. So you have absolutely no idea what you're talking about.

Treliving signed Tkachuk to an 8-year deal on the mutual understanding that he wasn't staying at all. Not even on the table. That was a pure 'Sign and Trade.'

Calgary was the only place that could give him 8 years to bring the AAV down. So he was signed with the design of trading him. The fact that he got the 8th year, the AAV down was what increased his value.

He was signing him so he could trade a contracted player. Tkachuk got his money and played ball.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by The Cobra

I know we have no idea, but I think he would have signed for 8 years if the money was right (say $9.5M), as the Tkachuk's always took the money if offered. Tkachuk was liking Calgary at that time.

I just never had that feeling. I think Matthew knew the money would be there no matter what.

Of course, Keith had his own history of, yes, taking the money, but then sitting out until he got his way for more money.

[PepsiFree]

Tkachuk was “gone” once COVID/Sutter hit because they were fresh in his mind when his contract was up.

If Treliving had signed him to a long term contract he’d still be on team now. Why are people pretending otherwise?

[Sylvanfan]

This thread is a good lesson for how much smarter everyone looks in hindsight.

The thing I take away is that whether by choice or not the organization has changed its behavior and did not tie itself to long term deals with guys who were approaching 30. Like many at the time the thought in my mind was to rebuild as that was the easier choice hockey wise. But a painful sell to people who had just watched a strong team win the Division the previous year. The moves had a lot of people thinking the Flames would still be a competitive team, but it didn't work out.

Sucks, but hopefully the silver lining will be that it forced the team to go a new direction and not be tied to 3 more guys with long deals.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by PepsiFree

Tkachuk was “gone” once COVID/Sutter hit because they were fresh in his mind when his contract was up.

If Treliving had signed him to a long term contract he’d still be on team now. Why are people pretending otherwise?

Well of course "if" Tkachuk signed a long term contract he'd be here now. But both parties have agency, and I think (a) long term" meant something different to Tkachuk, (b) I don't really trust Tkachuk's version of what he'd have been willing to sign (which seemed to be a six year deal) and (c) I think he was likely asking for what, at the time would have been a really high contract (which he has since justified).