American Politics 3.0 - Back to Brunch

[SutterBrother]

Originally Posted by Mathgod

It's a Flames forum, where do you think I live?

Off topic I suppose, but this forum is 22 years old, and was the successor to a website/UseNet Group that is more like 35 years old.

Plenty of folks have moved. CalgaryPuck Global Community!

(and even if you're still in Calgary, this election is going to have massive impact on your life)

[SutterBrother]

Since the President is now immune for "Official Acts" can Biden order Seal Team 6 to take out Donald Trump as a direct threat to the republic?

[SutterBrother]

I guess with the debate fiasco, the Supreme Court ruling as expected, my only hope is that this is the darkest timeline in the same way the Oilers coming back 0-3 was the darkest timeline... until it wasn't.

Yeesh. Tough way to start the week.

[calgarygeologist]

Originally Posted by SutterBrother

(and even if you're still in Calgary, this election is going to have massive impact on your life)

No, this election is not going to have a massive impact on the life of your average Calgarians/Canadian.

[Cube Inmate]

Originally Posted by calgarygeologist

No, this election is not going to have a massive impact on the life of your average Calgarians/Canadian.

Macro/micro... magnitude of impact is not the same as immediacy or perceived effect of the impact. We're talking about large-scale, long-term impacts that will have far larger consequences for me and my kids than any water main break or rezoning strategy.

[CorsiHockeyLeague]

Originally Posted by Sotomayor Dissent

When he uses his official powers in any way, under the majority’s reasoning, he now will be insulated from criminal prosecution. Orders the Navy’s Seal Team 6 to assassinate a political rival? Immune. Organizes a military coup to hold onto power? Immune. Takes a bribe in exchange for a pardon? Immune. Immune, immune, immune...

Let the President violate the law, let him exploit the trappings of his office for personal gain, let him use his official power for evil ends. Because if he knew that he may one day face liability for breaking the law, he might not be as bold and fearless as we would like him to be. That is the majority’s message today...

Even if these nightmare scenarios never play out, and I pray they never do, the damage has been done. The relationship between the President and the people he serves has shifted irrevocably. In every use of official power, the President is now a king above the law.

With fear for our democracy, I dissent.

Amen.

[Barnet Flame]

Does that mean the current President can use his official powers to bump off the conservative judges?

If so, he might want to start off with Clarence.

[Coach]

If the Democrats had any guts, they'd test this immediately with Biden.

1st "official act" abortion is legal federally.

[Mathgod]

Originally Posted by Rutuu

Points 1 & 2: Orban and Putin in my opinion were able to take advantage of hard economic times, weak institutions, and a general distrust of democracy within their post soviet populations. Hitler also took advantage of hard economic times and a population that was still unfamiliar with democracy.

Trump has relentlessly lied and demagogued to undermine institutions and spread distrust in elections. He's been doing it ever since 2015. He's also wildly overstated the economic challenges the country has been facing, and spreading lies about the country "declining" and "going to hell". It's obvious what he goal has been, to create the conditions necessary to do to America what Putin and Orban did to their countries.

The current US may be disillusioned with some aspects of THEIR democracy, but it is entrenched within generations of their population.

Maybe so, but once Trump is in power, is there anything they can do to protect democracy? You might say protest, but the combination of a lack of media other than Trump sychophants, and protests being violently snuffed out, will mean that the American people will be powerless to stop Trump from doing whatever he wants.

Murder is far more serious than any crime he is currently indicted with, and a far easier message to get across to an electorate that is bombarded daily with blockbuster headlines.

He can get around that problem by doing what Putin does. In most cases he prosecutes his political opponents to oblivion with bogus charges. When he wants to take someone out, he orders a secret assassination (thrown out window or poisoning) and denies any involvement in the death. Look at Navalny for example.

Point 4: This is his rhetoric.

It's strikingly similar to Nazi rhetoric, and it's a big problem. By framing his political opposition as extreme radicals hell bent on destroying the country, he's conditioned his supporters into thinking that their political opponents should be repressed or outright exterminated.

Point 5: The Chevron flip-flop, is actually less insidious, now Congress, who are elected to write laws, are responsible for writing the explicit laws for regulators to follow. The former system, gave the regulator unchecked power. I like my elected representatives controlling these types of things, but I can understand not everyone feels that way.

This might make sense in a theoretical level, but in the real world it creates massive problems. There are too many nuanced situations that come up, such that the congress can't possibly understand all the intricacies of each situation and write specific legislation for each one. It's just not practical. Even if it somehow was practical, you're swapping the on-the-ground, in-depth expertise of people who actually understand what the regulations should be, for the surface-level knowledge of Washington-DC politicians.

Then you have the problem of gridlock in congress. Unless democrats have control of all 3 chambers, no regulations get passed. Republicans only want to block regulations and remove the ones that already exist. The result is corporations having free reign to pollute the environment and harm the consumer all they want, and a handcuffed government unable to do anything about it.

Finally, there are more democrat appointed judges in the federal system.


364 of the 678 positions in the districts, and a little less than half of the appeals judges (85 out of 178).

The Supreme Court is in Trump's pocket. The lower courts can't do anything to overrule them.

You are entitled to feel the way you do about this election, but so do other people. Accusing us of not paying attention is a bit harsh I feel.

I take that comment back. But please try to understand my frustration. Up until the last few days, it didn't seem like anyone here was looking at this election with much seriousness or deep concern. Maybe I was wrong about that. But I keep seeing a whole lot of "hey don't worry, everything will be fine. What happened in other countries can't happen in America. The country survived one Trump presidency, it can survive another."

When I see these kinds of talking points, the hairs on the back of my neck stand up. They sound a lot like "don't worry, smoking doesn't cause cancer" or "don't worry, climate change is a hoax".

[Puppet Guy]

Originally Posted by Coach

If the Democrats had any guts, they'd test this immediately with Biden.

1st "official act" abortion is legal federally.

I'm sure there's a few "retroactive abortions" he could order that'd make America beautiful...

[dissentowner]

Originally Posted by SutterBrother

Since the President is now immune for "Official Acts" can Biden order Seal Team 6 to take out Donald Trump as a direct threat to the republic?

He absolutely should, get it done.

[Dogbert]

Originally Posted by calgarygeologist

No, this election is not going to have a massive impact on the life of your average Calgarians/Canadian.

Right - I seem to recall previous fascist dictatorships leaving their neighbours alone.

The 2024 election will be the last one in the United States, and then the countdown starts to the day we see the tanks roll in across the border.

[calgarygeologist]

Originally Posted by Dogbert

Right - I seem to recall previous fascist dictatorships leaving their neighbours alone.

The 2024 election will be the last one in the United States, and then the countdown starts to the day we see the tanks roll in across the border.

I hope you are saving up your pennies for a doomsday shelter and a stockpile of food and ammo.

[SutterBrother]

Originally Posted by calgarygeologist

No, this election is not going to have a massive impact on the life of your average Calgarians/Canadian.

Don't you think the right wing donkeys blocking Alberta highways and invading Ottawa were inspired by the MAGA crowd?

They're taking their news from Fox, and are immersed in American red state and Q-anon propaganda online.

I want to say there was an article a few months back as some of these protesters were being arrested being quoted as stating "this violates my first amendment rights!" as though they lived in the US.

I think there is a huge bleed over effect.

[Yamer]

Originally Posted by calgarygeologist

I hope you are saving up your pennies for a doomsday shelter and a stockpile of food and ammo.

I would, but they discontinued them.

[Fuzz]

Originally Posted by SutterBrother

Don't you think the right wing donkeys blocking Alberta highways and invading Ottawa were inspired by the MAGA crowd?

They're taking their news from Fox, and are immersed in American red state and Q-anon propaganda online.

I want to say there was an article a few months back as some of these protesters were being arrested being quoted as stating "this violates my first amendment rights!" as though they lived in the US.

I think there is a huge bleed over effect.

Our fricken' premier thought she had US pardon powers, even after working in media and politics for decades. Some people are just too dumb to function.

[calgarygeologist]

Originally Posted by SutterBrother

Don't you think the right wing donkeys blocking Alberta highways and invading Ottawa were inspired by the MAGA crowd?

They're taking their news from Fox, and are immersed in American red state and Q-anon propaganda online.

I want to say there was an article a few months back as some of these protesters were being arrested being quoted as stating "this violates my first amendment rights!" as though they lived in the US.

I think there is a huge bleed over effect.

Are the nutjobs inspired and wrapped up in MAGA and QAnon ####? Yes, absolutely but their movement and actions have had little impact on the political landscape and on the daily lives of Canadians. I definitely don't have any fear or worry that things are going to be massively impacted here based on ongoing MAGA action in the US.

[Rutuu]

Overall I want to engage with you so that you can talk out some of your points. I'm not trying to frustrate you or "win". I don't want your points dismissed. Let's go

Originally Posted by Mathgod

Trump has relentlessly lied and demagogued to undermine institutions and spread distrust in elections. He's been doing it ever since 2015. He's also wildly overstated the economic challenges the country has been facing, and spreading lies about the country "declining" and "going to hell". It's obvious what he goal has been, to create the conditions necessary to do to America what Putin and Orban did to their countries.

Yes he has. He's also been doing it his whole life with no repercussions until the last month where he was convicted of fraud. Unfortunately his rise is more a comment on how "money" can open doors and keep others from shutting in on you.

Unfortunately fear sells, and it has been a tool used for sales for a long time. He uses it, like others do, to sell his brand. High inflation and reduced disposable income does hit his base the hardest. He taps into their fears and that want to blame the hand your dealt rather than choices you've made. The NDP swept to power in Alberta after a premier told the electorate to "look in the mirror". Fans want the hits, not to think. Most politicians do similar things trying to trigger your emotions, economy, jobs, single issues, etc.

Originally Posted by Mathgod

Maybe so, but once Trump is in power, is there anything they can do to protect democracy? You might say protest, but the combination of a lack of media other than Trump sycophants, and protests being violently snuffed out, will mean that the American people will be powerless to stop Trump from doing whatever he wants.

The US has a free press, a history of free protest, and as stated before without military / para military suppression or a shrug that is enough in an extreme scenario.

Every system relies on people at some point. I know to some the issues are enormous and we're on the brink of a totalitarian state, but the reality is the blue team and red team are close on a lot of things, and America is one of the world's most prosperous nations with high social mobility. Even dictators hide their money there because of the strength, openness and stability of America's institutions. Trump, project 2025, Rush Limbaugh, etc aren't going to change that...they may say it...but they are selling a bit, they love most of the institutions as much as anyone.

Originally Posted by Mathgod

He can get around that problem by doing what Putin does. In most cases he prosecutes his political opponents to oblivion with bogus charges. When he wants to take someone out, he orders a secret assassination (thrown out window or poisoning) and denies any involvement in the death. Look at Navalny for example.

How to win on the Russian gameboard is very different than how to win on an American gameboard. Also Putin has to win, or he's dead. In most cases losing in America is pretty benign. Trump has changed the stakes a bit as he will be standing trial after trial if he loses for the foreseeable future.

In Russia Putin balances the military and the security services to maintain his own power. Kim Jong Un does something similar in North Korea, as does Xi in China. Power even if bestowed by whatever made up force is more balance than absolute. In America Trump would need the FBI, CIA, the rest of the security services, 5 branches of the military, plus all the cops on his side to name a few to carry out assassinations. In his last presidency, he didn't really have the respect of those services. They'd be more likely to take him out than serve him in my opinion.

Originally Posted by Mathgod

It's strikingly similar to Nazi rhetoric, and it's a big problem. By framing his political opposition as extreme radicals hell bent on destroying the country, he's conditioned his supporters into thinking that their political opponents should be repressed or outright exterminated.

What can I say, he's playing the hits for his base. They do have freedom of speech, and I guess he's exercising that right.

Originally Posted by Mathgod

This might make sense in a theoretical level, but in the real world it creates massive problems. There are too many nuanced situations that come up, such that the congress can't possibly understand all the intricacies of each situation and write specific legislation for each one. It's just not practical. Even if it somehow was practical, you're swapping the on-the-ground, in-depth expertise of people who actually understand what the regulations should be, for the surface-level knowledge of Washington-DC politicians.

Agree...but this is where case law takes over. Also people at these businesses don't just start dumping oil on the ground because they can. Typically businesses just want a stable framework to work in, then they adjust. Having a regulator instead of a legislator holding those reigns can make major projects difficult.

Originally Posted by Mathgod

Then you have the problem of gridlock in congress. Unless democrats have control of all 3 chambers, no regulations get passed. Republicans only want to block regulations and remove the ones that already exist. The result is corporations having free reign to pollute the environment and harm the consumer all they want, and a handcuffed government unable to do anything about it.

Bipartisan support is more popular than you are led to believe. Also ALL publications left, right, center use fear to sell. The red team and blue team in Congress and the Senate do work together quite a bit.

E.g.:

• In 2023, 467 of 487 bills passed with at least one Republican ‘yes’ vote (95.89%)
• In 2022, 291 of 308 bills passed with at least one Republican ‘yes’ vote. (94.48%)
• In 2021, 310 of 334 bills passed with at least one Republican ‘yes’ vote (92.81%)
• In the 2019-20 biennium, 812 of 854 bills passed with at least one Republican ‘yes’ vote (95.08%)

Originally Posted by Mathgod

The Supreme Court is in Trump's pocket. The lower courts can't do anything to overrule them.

This is annoying, but the Supreme Court's power is a pendulum, if they go too much against their own people the legislative branch will take more of a lead.

Originally Posted by Mathgod

I take that comment back. But please try to understand my frustration. Up until the last few days, it didn't seem like anyone here was looking at this election with much seriousness or deep concern. Maybe I was wrong about that. But I keep seeing a whole lot of "hey don't worry, everything will be fine. What happened in other countries can't happen in America. The country survived one Trump presidency, it can survive another."

When I see these kinds of talking points, the hairs on the back of my neck stand up. They sound a lot like "don't worry, smoking doesn't cause cancer" or "don't worry, climate change is a hoax".

I want you to know that you are heard, and it is ok to be frustrated. The 13 keys model helps you wade through a lot of the day to day headlines and think about what will actually matter on election day: https://www.socialstudies.org/system...se-8801006.pdf

It's all kind of infotainment in the mean time.

[Fuzz]

Originally Posted by calgarygeologist

Are the nutjobs inspired and wrapped up in MAGA and QAnon ####? Yes, absolutely but their movement and actions have had little impact on the political landscape and on the daily lives of Canadians. I definitely don't have any fear or worry that things are going to be massively impacted here based on ongoing MAGA action in the US.

That's the kind of naivety and disinterest they count on.

[Yamer]

Originally Posted by calgarygeologist

Are the nutjobs inspired and wrapped up in MAGA and QAnon ####? Yes, absolutely but their movement and actions have had little impact on the political landscape and on the daily lives of Canadians. I definitely don't have any fear or worry that things are going to be massively impacted here based on ongoing MAGA action in the US.

Take Back Alberta, a MAGA-like movement, is pulling some strings behind the scenes of our current provincial government.

It's already here.