[Trade] Markstrom (31.25% retained) traded to NJ for 2025 1st (top 10 protected) and Bahl

[TheScorpion]

In which I express my incredulity that some in the national media expected the Flames to land pick 10 (or even more!) in the Markstrom deal:

https://flamesnation.ca/news/jacob-m...0-plus-goalies

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by GreenLantern2814

It’s okay to just say he’s crazy and leave it at that.

Not happy with that description, especially in this context and when the discussion included Kylington.

Fleury was my favorite player. I can reconcile a lot for players I liked - they are just guys with generally limited education who can get sucked into saying and believing dumb things. But he's too far out there for me now. And he has a lot of agency now.

[Bandwagon Surfer]

Originally Posted by ComixZone

Agreed. You should also be allowed to acknowledge his fantastic career and time in Calgary, especially considering the pains of his upbringing.

You're also allowed to like the guy, regardless of his political views.

'member when we could appreciate artists, and people in general regardless of their political views?

I 'member.

At no point in history has that ever been true, politics has always been intertwined with everything else. The only people who have ever been able to ignore politics are those privileged enough to benefit from the current political situation. The people without that privilege cannot ignore it because of the limitations politics puts on their life.

To detach it from our politics, think about it using South Africa's apartheid as an example. In that political system it was super easy for the whites to ignore politics because it did not restrict them. But if you were black there is no way to ignore politics, the system was built to oppress you. If you tried to ignore aparthed you would be violently made you aware that politics exist.

This is why people react so differently when asked to "ignore politics". To people not impacted by the politics it seems reasonable. To the people oppressed, it is telling them that you support their oppression. Which is why telling people to ignore politics is a political statement.

[Jay Random]

Originally Posted by Bandwagon Surfer

At no point in history has that ever been true, politics has always been intertwined with everything else. The only people who have ever been able to ignore politics are those privileged enough to benefit from the current political situation. The people without that privilege cannot ignore it because of the limitations politics puts on their life.

To detach it from our politics, think about it using South Africa's apartheid as an example. In that political system it was super easy for the whites to ignore politics because it did not restrict them. But if you were black there is no way to ignore politics, the system was built to oppress you. If you tried to ignore aparthed you would be violently made you aware that politics exist.

Are you saying that the political situation in North America now is comparable to South Africa under apartheid? Because that's what would be required for every aspect of life to be as politicized as you say it is.

You remind me of George Orwell's story about the professor who gave a talk on Shakespeare at a Communist Party meeting. When he took questions after, the only thing anybody asked him was: ‘Was Shakespeare a capitalist?’

That level of political obsession makes it impossible to appreciate anything else in life.

[FlamesAddiction]

Originally Posted by TheScorpion

In which I express my incredulity that some in the national media expected the Flames to land pick 10 (or even more!) in the Markstrom deal:

https://flamesnation.ca/news/jacob-m...0-plus-goalies

A top 10 pick never seemed like a realistic possibility to me either. I said I'd accept a 2nd rounder and a young player like Holtz. So getting a protected 2025 1st and a young serviceable defenseman seems fair.

I'm just not that high on Markstrom to be honest. I think he can hold good teams in a lot of games, but I don't think he has it in him anymore to carry an average team

[dustygoon]

Originally Posted by cam_calderon

When someone has a profile as large as Theo's it's way worse when they spread the garbage takes he's become renowned for. He's brainwashing quite a lot of impressionable and unintelligent people - that's egregious.

Who? Who got brainwashed?

[Bandwagon Surfer]

Originally Posted by Jay Random

Are you saying that the political situation in North America now is comparable to South Africa under apartheid? Because that's what would be required for every aspect of life to be as politicized as you say it is.

You remind me of George Orwell's story about the professor who gave a talk on Shakespeare at a Communist Party meeting. When he took questions after, the only thing anybody asked him was: ‘Was Shakespeare a capitalist?’

That level of political obsession makes it impossible to appreciate anything else in life.

I said "To detach it from our politics", as in I am not comparing it to the current political situation in north america. The point I was making that it is a privilege to be able to ignore politics. The oppressed do not get a choice to ignore it.

If you find people talking about it makes it hard to appreciate life, try being on the other side. Do the people facing constant harassment and death threats based on how they were born ever get to ignore it? If you want a north american example: I can use a bathroom without needing to think about politics, many of my friends are forced to be keenly aware of politics just to pee safely.

To be truly apolitical you need to acknowledge the reality of the situation, trying to selectively pick and choose what to recognize and what to ignore is introducing political opinions.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by dustygoon

Who? Who got brainwashed?

Jamie Sale?

[Jay Random]

Originally Posted by Bandwagon Surfer

I said "To detach it from our politics", as in I am not comparing it to the current political situation in north america. The point I was making that it is a privilege to be able to ignore politics. The oppressed do not get a choice to ignore it.

It's a privilege under the extreme conditions you described. Under different conditions, you don't have to reduce everything in your life to all politics, all the time.

If you find people talking about it makes it hard to appreciate life, try being on the other side.

What makes you so certain I'm not on the other side?

[DionTheDman]

Came for Markstrom trade discussion.

Stayed for the Fleury spouting BS discussion.

F Theo Fleury. And he was my childhood hero.

[PepsiFree]

Originally Posted by Jay Random

What makes you so certain I'm not on the other side?

…are you?

[Jay Random]

Originally Posted by PepsiFree

…are you?

You know I don't talk about my personal life on here. I come to CP to get away from my troubles.

[Bandwagon Surfer]

Originally Posted by Jay Random

It's a privilege under the extreme conditions you described. Under different conditions, you don't have to reduce everything in your life to all politics, all the time.

I don't think it is that binary. Everyone experiences life differently. Ideally nobody needs to think about politics, but that is not the world we live in. A society where 10% have no choice to ignore politics is better than a society with 80%, but it is still a problem for the 10%.

Originally Posted by Jay Random

What makes you so certain I'm not on the other side?

Haha, well I am not talking about political sides, or any particular political opinion. Only that there are some people who are privileged enough to be able to ignore politics, and there are others who do not get to make that choice because they are the target of politics. So ones side gets revealed by how they respond.

Until we create a society where everyone can choose ignore politics, telling other people to ignore politics is a political statement. The only way to leave politics out of it is to put all the facts on the table, and accept that different people will place different emphasis on different things, and express different options. Policing what other people's opinions as being political is a surefire way to make it political.

[Goriders]

Theo can say whatever he wants.

It’s still allowed in Canada………. I think

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by Goriders

Theo can say whatever he wants.

It’s still allowed in Canada………. I think

He can. And we can say what we think of him.

[Jay Random]

Originally Posted by Bandwagon Surfer

Until we create a society where everyone can choose ignore politics, telling other people to ignore politics is a political statement.

Look. Nobody is telling anyone to ignore politics. But if you cannot appreciate a work of art unless the artist agrees with your politics, that's not because you're oppressed; it's because you're intolerant.

Theo Fleury was a highly talented and entertaining hockey player, but he is (at least in some respects) a pretty nasty human being. Both these things can be true at the same time, and to deny that is to court insanity.

George Orwell said it very well in ‘Benefit of Clergy’:

Originally Posted by George Orwell

One ought to be able to hold in one's head simultaneously the two facts that Dali is a good draughtsman and a disgusting human being. The one does not invalidate or, in a sense, affect the other.

The first thing that we demand of a wall is that it shall stand up. If it stands up, it is a good wall, and the question of what purpose it serves is separable from that. And yet even the best wall in the world deserves to be pulled down if it surrounds a concentration camp. In the same way it should be possible to say, ‘This is a good book or a good picture, and it ought to be burned by the public hangman.’ Unless one can say that, at least in imagination, one is shirking the implications of the fact that an artist is also a citizen and a human being.

[Goriders]

As long as he doesn’t say he’s cheering for the oilers I’m okay.

That’s the line in the sand

[PepsiFree]

Originally Posted by Jay Random

Look. Nobody is telling anyone to ignore politics. But if you cannot appreciate a work of art unless the artist agrees with your politics, that's not because you're oppressed; it's because you're intolerant.

Theo Fleury was a highly talented and entertaining hockey player, but he is (at least in some respects) a pretty nasty human being. Both these things can be true at the same time, and to deny that is to court insanity.

George Orwell said it very well in ‘Benefit of Clergy’:

Nobody is arguing for what you’re attempting to argue against.

The argument is against ignoring his “politics” which you’ve correctly identified with “a pretty nasty human being.” Nobody (not a single person) has denied or suggested his hockey career be ignored, the only argument is that it is not worthy of jersey retirement, because honouring players involves more than just their play on the ice. There are awards for that. Honours are different.

The irony is that the Orwell quote works completely for the arguments you’re trying to argue against.

He was a fantastic hockey player, but he should not be honoured, because he is also a pretty nasty human being.

Two thoughts, neither invalidating the other.

Suggesting that Orwell was actually arguing for ignoring something that is true of someone? That isn’t insanity, but it’s an exceptionally poor interpretation.

[Jay Random]

Originally Posted by PepsiFree

Nobody is arguing for what you’re attempting to argue against.

The argument is against ignoring his “politics” which you’ve correctly identified with “a pretty nasty human being.” Nobody (not a single person) has denied or suggested his hockey career be ignored, the only argument is that it is not worthy of jersey retirement, because honouring players involves more than just their play on the ice. There are awards for that. Honours are different.

It seemed to me that Bandwagon Surfer was specifically saying we can't appreciate Fleury's quality as a hockey player because of his politics; and further, that only a person insulated by privilege could possibly disagree.

I do not, by the way, base my opinion of Fleury as a person on his political views (which I don't listen to), but on the way he has treated people who were trying to work with him. His actions, not his words.

[Bandwagon Surfer]

Originally Posted by Jay Random

Look. Nobody is telling anyone to ignore politics. But if you cannot appreciate a work of art unless the artist agrees with your politics, that's not because you're oppressed; it's because you're intolerant.

Theo Fleury was a highly talented and entertaining hockey player, but he is (at least in some respects) a pretty nasty human being. Both these things can be true at the same time, and to deny that is to court insanity.

George Orwell said it very well in ‘Benefit of Clergy’:

Sorry, I am not trying to talk about Fleury one way or another.


What I was responding to was the idea that it is right or wrong to seperate people's works from their politics. That telling others to seperate politics, is adding politics to it because not everyone has the dame ability to avoid politics. It is better to just accept that different people will choose how much to separate it for themself.