Star Trek General Discussion

[craigwd]

Originally Posted by OutOfTheCube

Technobabble engineering solutions are hardly unique to Discovery in the Star Trek Universe, lol. That's been a series staple from the start.

What got me is when DISCO tried to start wedging actual scientific terms into it's technobabble.

It's easy to accept things, when it sounds technical but in actuality is just made up BS. But when you start talking tardigrades and entanglement, etc. and try to make it fit your plot, it feels less "real" haha.

[Shazam]

Disco was mostly ######igrades.

[Locke]

Happy Captain Picard Day!

[Sr. Mints]

DS9 really starts to pick up toward the end of season 2. Three very important villains--Jem'Hadar, Vorta, and Founders--were all introduced over three episodes beginning with the S2 finale and into S3. In terms of storytelling and setting up remaining seasons, establishing these antagonists rapid-fire is certainly efficient.

The episode 'The Jem'Hadar' was somewhat worse than I remember. It struck me that the team behind the scenes very quickly dropped the Vorta's telekinetic ability. I don't recall seeing anything like that again.

[Ped]

Finished S7 rewatch of Next Gen. It was really time to shut it down, because there were a lot of terrible episodes, and a poor start with Descent Part 2 and Liasons (the aliens who don't understand love, gluttony, or anger).


And there were some truly terrible episodes in this season, including Sub Rosa (Crusher has sex with a ghost), Masks (just an excuse for Brent SPiner to flex his acting chops), Genesis (the crew de-evolves into amphibians and spiders), and Emergence (the ship is alive!).


We see the return of Ro Laren in her final episode (How would DS9 have looked with her instead of Kira), Wesley twice (alternate reality in one episode, and his send-off in another), and Tasha Yar and O'Brien (in the finale).


Great guest stars as always, including Terry O'Quinn and Mark Rolston and Paul Sorvino. A few episodes that were mostly okay but blew the ending, like Attached (Crusher and Picard are tethered together, and in the end she pushes him away).


But also some great episodes, including what is probably the finest Lwaxana episode in "Dark Page," the alternate realities of "Paralells" (where Worf and Troi went on their first date), one of the finest episodes in any of the Star Treks in "Lower Decks," and a great finale seeing the return of Q, Yar, and O'Brien, and one of the best scenes to ever end a TV show imo.

[KTrain]

The crew's de-evolution in Genesis made no sense but I love that episode. Spot as an iguana was so lazy but hilarious. Especially with how integral it was to plot.

[Yeah_Baby]

Originally Posted by Sr. Mints

DS9 really starts to pick up toward the end of season 2. Three very important villains--Jem'Hadar, Vorta, and Founders--were all introduced over three episodes beginning with the S2 finale and into S3. In terms of storytelling and setting up remaining seasons, establishing these antagonists rapid-fire is certainly efficient.

The episode 'The Jem'Hadar' was somewhat worse than I remember. It struck me that the team behind the scenes very quickly dropped the Vorta's telekinetic ability. I don't recall seeing anything like that again.

You could hand wave it away by saying just that one line of Vorta clones had that ability.

[CliffFletcher]

Originally Posted by Ped

We see the return of Ro Laren in her final episode (How would DS9 have looked with her instead of Kira),

When I learned the role of Kira was originally intended to be Ro Laren, but Michelle Forbes turned it down, it genuinely undermined my pleasure in DS9. Nana Visitor is better suited to playing a sharp-tongued real estate agent than a war-weary insurgent. Just way too light-weight. Laren/Forbes would have been much better suited to the tone of DS9.

[Locke]

Originally Posted by Ped

Finished S7 rewatch of Next Gen. It was really time to shut it down, because there were a lot of terrible episodes, and a poor start with Descent Part 2 and Liasons (the aliens who don't understand love, gluttony, or anger).


And there were some truly terrible episodes in this season, including Sub Rosa (Crusher has sex with a ghost), Masks (just an excuse for Brent SPiner to flex his acting chops), Genesis (the crew de-evolves into amphibians and spiders), and Emergence (the ship is alive!).


We see the return of Ro Laren in her final episode (How would DS9 have looked with her instead of Kira), Wesley twice (alternate reality in one episode, and his send-off in another), and Tasha Yar and O'Brien (in the finale).


Great guest stars as always, including Terry O'Quinn and Mark Rolston and Paul Sorvino. A few episodes that were mostly okay but blew the ending, like Attached (Crusher and Picard are tethered together, and in the end she pushes him away).


But also some great episodes, including what is probably the finest Lwaxana episode in "Dark Page," the alternate realities of "Paralells" (where Worf and Troi went on their first date), one of the finest episodes in any of the Star Treks in "Lower Decks," and a great finale seeing the return of Q, Yar, and O'Brien, and one of the best scenes to ever end a TV show imo.

This is the thing though...its just timeless.

Season 7 of TNG is over 30 years old and I can still go back and watch every episode and love it all over again.

Appreciate the cheese, embrace the lazy writing, all of it. I just love it.

[CaptainCrunch]

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

When I learned the role of Kira was originally intended to be Ro Laren, but Michelle Forbes turned it down, it genuinely undermined my pleasure in DS9. Nana Visitor is better suited to playing a sharp-tongued real estate agent than a war-weary insurgent. Just way too light-weight. Laren/Forbes would have been much better suited to the tone of DS9.

Michelle Forbes though is just elite in everything she does.


In my recent rewatch of BattleStar Galactica, she might have only been in a couple of series episodes, but she cast a wide shadow, and carried Razor on her own.

[timun]

Originally Posted by KTrain

The crew's de-evolution in Genesis made no sense but I love that episode. Spot as an iguana was so lazy but hilarious. Especially with how integral it was to plot.

I'll die on this hill: "Genesis" was a great episode. Scientifically, gibberish? And inconsistent with that gibberish? Yes, undoubtedly. But it was done so very well.

[timun]

Originally Posted by Sr. Mints

DS9 really starts to pick up toward the end of season 2. Three very important villains--Jem'Hadar, Vorta, and Founders--were all introduced over three episodes beginning with the S2 finale and into S3. In terms of storytelling and setting up remaining seasons, establishing these antagonists rapid-fire is certainly efficient.

The episode 'The Jem'Hadar' was somewhat worse than I remember. It struck me that the team behind the scenes very quickly dropped the Vorta's telekinetic ability. I don't recall seeing anything like that again.

You should rewatch some of the earlier episodes of season 2: they actually quite slowly, methodically introduced the Dominion. In "Rules of Acquisition", the one with 'Pel' the female Ferengi, the goofy Gamma Quadrant race (whatever they were called; red faces, one of them played by Brian Thompson) that they were trying to deal with said they couldn't deal in the volume of product that they wanted to. However, goofy-red-faced guys said "We can put you in touch with the Karemma, who are a member of the Dominion..."

A few episodes later there's the one with the refugees from a planet in the Gamma Quadrant who flee through the wormhole and think that Bajor is a fabled safe-haven planet. ('Skkreeeans'? However the #### it's supposedly to be spelled/pronounced... Their defining physical characteristic was super-flakey skin...?) They fled being slaves to another species whose planet was conquered by... the Dominion...


The writers name-dropped this unknown "big-bad" throughout the second season. It was quite well done, in retrospect; so subtle that I forgot they'd done it until a rewatch much later.

[CaptainCrunch]

The building of the Dominion as the enemy was a master class in villain building.


When we first meet them it was interesting because you get these Hardcore soldiers so you think that maybe they are like the Klingons. Then we see the duplicity of the Vorta. We also learn from Quark that the Dominion aren't really into negotiating for opening up trade. Then we see how hardcore the Jem'Hardar are at the end of season two, as they easily destroy a retreating Star Ship just to show resolve.


Then in season three they keep popping up, not on screen but in rumors, this ruthless empire basically. And they let us stew on that where you feel the menace and don't see it.



When they finally bought in the founders, it was nearly complete, but the terrifying moment was when they literally forced the Federation into change based on rumor and whispers. And as fans we knew that the Federation could be infiltrated and nobody would know. Then the chefs kiss, when a founder in the shape of Chief O'brien simply states "There are very few of us on earth, and look at what we've done to your federation based on fear". Its not an exact quote, but whatever.


The Dominion had layers, you had to be squared of the Jem'Hadar they were literally like the Hitler youth and the worst of the SS all in one. you had to be interested in teh Vorta, but they were really the accountants of the Dominion. But the Founders once you got to know them were terrifying because their whole mission was based on what they felt was a dire threat to their survival, and bringing their own version of peace and order to the Galaxy. And they weren't wrong in their thinking. Look at what the Federation did, they were willing to give up freedoms and live in a state of heightened militancy and paranoia. They were willing to go to the worst of human instincts with thoughts of genocide and biological warfare. Hell their best Captain, and a man with a what we thought was a high level of integrity, was willing to lie and murder and live with it, to sell out the ideals that founded the Federation.


To me, one of the reprucussions of the Dominion War in the end, should have been the fall of the Federation.


Anyone who's read the excellent game and book series of Wing Commander can see what happened to their Confederation after they defeated the Kilrathi in a long and brutal war. A near military coup, a fractured government, and one of their greatest leaders deciding to reform the human race, based on a theory of evolution, survival of the human race, and the weakness of a civilian government.

[timun]

Originally Posted by CaptainCrunch

Then the chefs kiss, when a founder in the shape of Chief O'brien simply states "There are very few of us on earth, and look at what we've done to your federation based on fear". Its not an exact quote, but whatever.

"Let me ask you a question: how many changelings do you think are here, on Earth, right at this moment?"

"I'm not going to play any guessing games with you."

"Ah. What if I were to tell you that there are only four on this entire planet? Huh? Not counting Constable Odo, of course. Think of it: just four of us. And look at the havoc we've wrought. "

"How do I know you're telling me the truth?"

"Oh four is more than enough. *soft chuckle* We're smarter than solids. We're better than you. And, most importantly, we do not fear you the way you fear us. In the end it's your fear that will destroy you."

"Are you finished?"

"Finished?! Ahhahaha, we've barely begun! I'll be seeing you."

Ironically the Founders fear of everyone else was what caused all the conflict in the first place, and the O'Brien-changeling's bit about how "we do not fear you the way you fear us" couldn't have been more hypocritical.

[Ped]

That scene were Sisko is looking at the knife his father cut himself on (RIP Brock Peters) to see if he is a changeling was such an amazingly well done scene.

[Blaster86]

But we didn't want to plan out the watch along.


I hate all of you. Especially CliffFletcher for trying to say Nana Visitor didn't absolutely nail the role of Kira Nerys as a former terrorist turned military officer.

Originally Posted by timun

Ironically the Founders fear of everyone else was what caused all the conflict in the first place, and the O'Brien-changeling's bit about how "we do not fear you the way you fear us" couldn't have been more hypocritical.

It's so amazing because on the face of it, they didn't fear the Federation the same way the Federation feared the Dominion. Both sides knew (rightfully) that the Dominion would likely win almost any direct conflict. In fact, they were the Prophets and an unexpected black op wet work operation by a Cardassian tailor away from winning even with the wormhole bottle neck. The Federation was afraid not just of the threat of an invading force but a people that forced them to change their way of life to combat.

Meanwhile, Changelings have a built in species spanning fear of uncontrolled solids because of how some of them were treated and the persecution some of them endured. The great link essentially created a species wide "Never again!" feeling towards every single species they themselves didn't genetically alter/create to be bred for loyalty.

Funnily, the 100 they sent out coming home could have possibly altered that fear if they'd all had experiences like Odo had (Finding friends and surrogate family).

[Yeah_Baby]

My only regret (although production wise I understand why) is that they flatten the Dominion into just Founders, Vorta, and Jem'Hadar. Other than the two alpha quadrant races that join we see, but we don't see any of the other member races of the dominion. For example The Hunters from season 1 were originally going to be the Dominons pilots. Which ties back to a cool bit where Tosk is sorta linked to Dominon cloning etc, and why they kinda look like Jem'Hadar.

[Barnes]

Originally Posted by Yeah_Baby

My only regret (although production wise I understand why) is that they flatten the Dominion into just Founders, Vorta, and Jem'Hadar. Other than the two alpha quadrant races that join we see, but we don't see any of the other member races of the dominion. For example The Hunters from season 1 were originally going to be the Dominons pilots. Which ties back to a cool bit where Tosk is sorta linked to Dominon cloning etc, and why they kinda look like Jem'Hadar.

I always just assumed that the Changelings fear of solids meant that they only trusted the Vorta and Jem'Hadar because they created them to rule over all the other species in the Gamma quadrant so the Changelings didnt have to deal with solids at all.

[Blaster86]

The changling's fear of solids is why they genetically modified the Vorta and created the Jem'Hadar. The original idea (that Yeah_Baby alluded too) was that they would conquer and then modify everyone after the fact to make them subservient and serve a purpose. You see remnants of that idea all over the series in the interactions with the Gamma Quadrant races.

[Monahammer]

Originally Posted by Yeah_Baby

My only regret (although production wise I understand why) is that they flatten the Dominion into just Founders, Vorta, and Jem'Hadar. Other than the two alpha quadrant races that join we see, but we don't see any of the other member races of the dominion. For example The Hunters from season 1 were originally going to be the Dominons pilots. Which ties back to a cool bit where Tosk is sorta linked to Dominon cloning etc, and why they kinda look like Jem'Hadar.

I've always posited that the Hunters were specifically the dominion's anti-insurgency force. The trained Jem Hadar killers. Not particularly good at fighting anything else, but outrageously efficient at hunting and killing rogue Jem Hadar.