Barn Burner: The Boys are Back!! (Boomer, Pinder & Warrener)

[FlamesAddiction]

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

I think fans have a tough time getting their heads around the idea that members of the media are not also fans. Seravelli, Friedman, Dreger, Johnston - none of these guys have strong feelings about the Flames, or the Oilers, or any team other in the league.

Stop and consider for a moment how you feel about the Wild. Or the Islanders. Probably nothing, right? That’s how Seravelli feels about the Flames.

I don't totally disagree, but I do think there is a different dynamic with the Flames and Oilers. The Oilers have always been media darlings due to having had a dynasty, the best player production-wise that ever played the game, and the nostalgia that goes with that. It's in full throttle now in the McDavid era.

The Flames on the other hand, being the rival were assigned by the media, the role of heel. When the Flames are good and an obstacle to the media darlings, they are viewed as the baddies, and when they are bad, the media likes to pile on. It also didn't help that the Flames had long associations with Darryl Sutter who was adversarial with the media. The media reveled in the recent downfall of the Flames with Sutter leading the way, and this was particularly true with Seravalli. I would think he should get it more than anyone because the Philly-Pittsburgh dynamic is similar to the Calgary-Edmonton one, but it seems lost on him.

For me, the Oilers being media darlings was one of the main things that attracted me to the Flames. I grew up in an area that wasn't really in specified market amd hated being force fed the Oilers, so I gravitated towards their main rival. Becoming a Flames fan was literally based on hating the Oilers first and foremost. I have always hated the feedback loop of things being popular for being popular. The current media hype around the Oilers is the sports world version of everyone becoming Swifties.

[TOfan]

Originally Posted by FlamesAddiction

I don't totally disagree, but I do think there is a different dynamic with the Flames and Oilers. The Oilers have always been media darlings due to having had a dynasty, the best player production-wise that ever played the game, and the nostalgia that goes with that. It's in full throttle now in the McDavid era.

The Flames on the other hand, being the rival were assigned by the media, the role of heel. When the Flames are good and an obstacle to the media darlings, they are viewed as the baddies, and when they are bad, the media likes to pile on. It also didn't help that the Flames had long associations with Darryl Sutter who was adversarial with the media. The media reveled in the recent downfall of the Flames with Sutter leading the way, and this was particularly true with Seravalli. I would think he should get it more than anyone because the Philly-Pittsburgh dynamic is similar to the Calgary-Edmonton one, but it seems lost on him.

For me, the Oilers being media darlings was one of the main things that attracted me to the Flames. I grew up in an area that wasn't really in specified market amd hated being force fed the Oilers, so I gravitated towards their main rival. Becoming a Flames fan was literally based on hating the Oilers first and foremost. I have always hated the feedback loop of things being popular for being popular. The current media hype around the Oilers is the sports world version of everyone becoming Swifties.

This seems a little Tim-foil hat-ish to me.

If the media is indifferent towards the flames right now it’s because they’ve put together an indifferent product. If it was the Flames who wound up with a lottery win in 2015 (which btw wasn’t out of hand at the start of the season, many had the Flames at the bottom of the league) and McDavid was a Flames, the same attention the media is heaping on the Oilers would have been heaped on the Flames.

The Flames aren’t the black hat villains right now that the media secretly dislikes, they’re just not a very good hockey team.

[CliffFletcher]

The Canadian media is championing the Oilers because they’re Canada’s best shot at the Cup. Canadian media went bananas for the Flames back when the Red Mile was going on. There’s nothing conspiratorial about their promotion of the Oilers. Want more attention from the Canadian media? Be a better team.

As for McDavid, well no #### the best player in the game gets lots of attention. That’s how pro sports works. And actually the NHL comes under a lot of criticism for not promoting its stars enough compared to other pro leagues. McDavid doesn’t get anywhere near the media coverage he would get if he was the top player in the NFL or NBA in an American market.

[FlamesAddiction]

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

The Canadian media is championing the Oilers because they’re Canada’s best shot at the Cup. Canadian media went bananas for the Flames back when the Red Mile was going on. There’s nothing conspiratorial about their promotion of the Oilers. Want more attention from the Canadian media? Be a better team.

As for McDavid, well no #### the best player in the game gets lots of attention. That’s how pro sports works. And actually the NHL comes under a lot of criticism for not promoting its stars enough compared to other pro leagues. McDavid doesn’t get anywhere near the media coverage he would get if he was the top player in the NFL or NBA in an American market.

The history is what it is though. Be a better team might work in isolation, but the Flames can't and likely never will match the lore that the Oilers have in the NHL. If things were reversed, of course the Flames would be the media darlings, but short of building a time machine, it's not going to change and likely never will. Creating that is rare and takes a huge amount of luck and time to settle in. Every sports league has their darlings so I don't see why it's a controversial idea.

If you don't think some of the older guys in the media aren't reliving their youth vicariously through the Oilers, that's fine. Maybe you're right, but I think there is a bias based on the history and not just the current stars on the team.

As for the 2004 run where the Flames were being billed as "Canada's team", it was different because the Oilers weren't there. If there was a BoA in that run, I doubt the media would have promoted them equally. I also recall a lot of Flames fans spurning the idea and not wanting that label. Unlike most Oiler fans who seem to really believe it.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by FlamesAddiction

The history is what it is though. Be a better team might work in isolation, but the Flames can't and likely never will match the lore that the Oilers have in the NHL. If things were reversed, of course the Flames would be the media darlings, but short of building a time machine, it's not going to change and likely never will. Creating that is rare and takes a huge amount of luck and time to settle in. Every sports league has their darlings so I don't see why it's a controversial idea.

If you don't think some of the older guys in the media aren't reliving their youth vicariously through the Oilers, that's fine. Maybe you're right, but I think there is a bias based on the history and not just the current stars on the team.

As for the 2004 run where the Flames were being billed as "Canada's team", it was different because the Oilers weren't there. If there was a BoA in that run, I doubt the media would have promoted them equally. I also recall a lot of Flames fans spurning the idea and not wanting that label. Unlike most Oiler fans who seem to really believe it.

Yeah some people don't remember the hype even players like Smythe, Horcoff, Gagner, Weight and Hemsky would get.

[8sPOT]

Nah sports are cyclical. Flames could very well turn out to be a way better franchise. That’s why we watch. Why we follow. You can’t predict sports, and certainly can’t say with any certainty that the Oilers will ALWAYS have a bigger following than the Flames. That’s just silly .

[Huntingwhale]

Originally Posted by 8sPOT

Nah sports are cyclical. Flames could very well turn out to be a way better franchise. That’s why we watch. Why we follow. You can’t predict sports, and certainly can’t say with any certainty that the Oilers will ALWAYS have a bigger following than the Flames. That’s just silly .

Not true. Flames fans are as bandwagon as it gets ever since the team was good in the early 90s. '04 was the pinnacle of that then it tapered on and off post-Iggy era. Heck, look at any CP thread after a few games winning/losing streak in any season since then. People are on and off with regularity and it shows it ticket sales, fandom in the city and general water cooler discussions.

Oiler fans, like them or not, will crawl through literal glass for their team. Sell out after sell out, even during the decade of darkness days. Doesn't matter how bad they are doing, their PR department pumps out optimistic after optimistic take. They have the entire Rogers/SN media group on their side. Flames will never get that kind of attention or coverage, regardless of how they do. Even after a few Flames division wins recently, coverage will still significantly less. Following those division-winning seasons and a few weeks into the next season, the first losing stream had fans here jumping off the bandwagon. That is simply never the case with Oiler fans. Barring some kind of dynasty run here, it will probably stay that way.

[Yeah_Baby]

Originally Posted by Huntingwhale

Not true. Flames fans are as bandwagon as it gets ever since the team was good in the early 90s. '04 was the pinnacle of that then it tapered on and off post-Iggy era. Heck, look at any CP thread after a few games winning/losing streak in any season since then. People are on and off with regularity and it shows it ticket sales, fandom in the city and general water cooler discussions.

Oiler fans, like them or not, will crawl through literal glass for their team. Sell out after sell out, even during the decade of darkness days. Doesn't matter how bad they are doing, their PR department pumps out optimistic after optimistic take. They have the entire Rogers/SN media group on their side. Flames will never get that kind of attention or coverage, regardless of how they do. Even after a few Flames division wins recently, coverage will still significantly less. Following those division-winning seasons and a few weeks into the next season, the first losing stream had fans here jumping off the bandwagon. That is simply never the case with Oiler fans. Barring some kind of dynasty run here, it will probably stay that way.

I think it was Rhett on BB who classified it pretty succulently for me (as an obv generalization). Calgary is a city of Hockey appreciators, whereas Edmonton is a city of fans.

[8sPOT]

Originally Posted by Huntingwhale

Not true. Flames fans are as bandwagon as it gets ever since the team was good in the early 90s. '04 was the pinnacle of that then it tapered on and off post-Iggy era. Heck, look at any CP thread after a few games winning/losing streak in any season since then. People are on and off with regularity and it shows it ticket sales, fandom in the city and general water cooler discussions.

Oiler fans, like them or not, will crawl through literal glass for their team. Sell out after sell out, even during the decade of darkness days. Doesn't matter how bad they are doing, their PR department pumps out optimistic after optimistic take. They have the entire Rogers/SN media group on their side. Flames will never get that kind of attention or coverage, regardless of how they do. Even after a few Flames division wins recently, coverage will still significantly less. Following those division-winning seasons and a few weeks into the next season, the first losing stream had fans here jumping off the bandwagon. That is simply never the case with Oiler fans. Barring some kind of dynasty run here, it will probably stay that way.

You just contradicted yourself at the end though. Saying it'll NEVER happen...barring some kind of dynasty run. Thats exactly my point.

[FurnaceFace]

I grew up in a non NHL city but as of this summer will have spent half my life in Calgary. It is home. It will be home for the foreseeable future. My observation with a bit of an outside looking in perspective is Calgary seems to have a little brother, almost small man complex. I’ve never really understood this mentality.

As a city we’re pretty superior to any in the prairies. Going to university everyone wanted a co-op job in Calgary. Those who didn’t were envious of those who did. The industry, the vibe, the climate, the mountains are right there. We’ve got nearly everything. We’re missing a legacy of Stanley cups is all it seems. I wouldn’t trade everything Calgary has for a few more nearly 40 year old banners. Let greaserville flaunt their superior luck and their 3 generation old success. We should be sitting back content in the knowledge we have everything else.

[Sainters7]

And frankly it shouldn't have taken until Year 8 of their McWindow to become the noticeably better team in the BoA, they've alreasy wasted so much time. Enjoy these final couple years before it's over and we're back to superior everything, there Greaserville.

[Bill Bumface]

I got made fun of for wearing Flames gear to school in elementary - in Calgary. It's always been a flakey fan base compared to places where you're born into the cult of your team.

[Yeah_Baby]

Originally Posted by FurnaceFace

I grew up in a non NHL city but as of this summer will have spent half my life in Calgary. It is home. It will be home for the foreseeable future. My observation with a bit of an outside looking in perspective is Calgary seems to have a little brother, almost small man complex. I’ve never really understood this mentality.

As a city we’re pretty superior to any in the prairies. Going to university everyone wanted a co-op job in Calgary. Those who didn’t were envious of those who did. The industry, the vibe, the climate, the mountains are right there. We’ve got nearly everything. We’re missing a legacy of Stanley cups is all it seems. I wouldn’t trade everything Calgary has for a few more nearly 40 year old banners. Let greaserville flaunt their superior luck and their 3 generation old success. We should be sitting back content in the knowledge we have everything else.

What's interesting is I think there really is only one Calgary. I think there is a universality to the culture of the city, (at least among white settler Calgary).

Edmonton (at least as far as white settler) Calgary really feels like there are two Edmontons. The artsy progressive scene and the truck nuts.

[CliffFletcher]

The only kid I ever saw wear Oilers gear to school in the 80s was a girl in jr high - and she only got away with it because beating up a girl wouldn’t have been cool. Other than that, I didn’t see a single student or teacher wear Oilers gear or express even the most tepid support for the Oilers. It just wasn’t done. And this was the peak Gretzky era.

So this whole Oilers fans in Calgary thing I hear about must have started in the 90s at the earliest.

[bdubbs]

Originally Posted by Huntingwhale

Not true. Flames fans are as bandwagon as it gets ever since the team was good in the early 90s. '04 was the pinnacle of that then it tapered on and off post-Iggy era. Heck, look at any CP thread after a few games winning/losing streak in any season since then. People are on and off with regularity and it shows it ticket sales, fandom in the city and general water cooler discussions.

Oiler fans, like them or not, will crawl through literal glass for their team. Sell out after sell out, even during the decade of darkness days. Doesn't matter how bad they are doing, their PR department pumps out optimistic after optimistic take. They have the entire Rogers/SN media group on their side. Flames will never get that kind of attention or coverage, regardless of how they do. Even after a few Flames division wins recently, coverage will still significantly less. Following those division-winning seasons and a few weeks into the next season, the first losing stream had fans here jumping off the bandwagon. That is simply never the case with Oiler fans. Barring some kind of dynasty run here, it will probably stay that way.

I disagree that it'll always be this way. Not the same sport, but where was Golden State before they got Steph Curry and Klay Thompson and Draymond and went on a historic run of finals appearances/wins?

Their fanbase is massive now, and I don't see why it couldn't be the Flames in that situation. The biggest thing is they had to suffer and be patient and draft well to get to where they are, which is what Calgary needs to do.

Whether or not ownership/management can be patient enough to do so is another question entirely.

[FlamesAddiction]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

Yeah some people don't remember the hype even players like Smythe, Horcoff, Gagner, Weight and Hemsky would get.

The national media always hypes the Oilers. When they are in the bad part of a cycle, the narrative is always about how the past was glorious, how sad it is that they aren't great at the moment, and the future is bright. When the Flames are in a bad part of the cycle, the media never misses an opportunity to pile on and promote negativity. To be fair, the regional media isn't much better. I lived in Ontario for several years and mentioning being a Flames fan would almost always get condescending look or reply. I can't say I know for sure an Oilers fan would get the same treatment, but I doubt it. And that was when the Flames were good.

Originally Posted by Bill Bumface

I got made fun of for wearing Flames gear to school in elementary - in Calgary. It's always been a flakey fan base compared to places where you're born into the cult of your team.

I lived in Lethbridge just before, during, and right after the 2004 run. When I first moved there, I proudly displayed that I was a Flames fan and it really seemed to confuse people. The other Flames fans I met were like, dude, we don't advertise it here. Then during the 04 run, suddenly they were out of the wood work and everywhere, but then the next year it tapered off again. It was weird because it felt like it wasn't allowed or something. I did get my Flames car flag snapped off and my windshield wipers bent, so I get it.

[greyshep]

Honestly the only reason there is a larger contingent of Oiler fans is due to casual fan front runner mentality. Being gifted 2 superstar generational players will cause that unfortunately.

Its nothing that can be attributed to shrewd management or planning. Lottery ball central up there.

[Calgary4LIfe]

Winning changes everything.


The Oilers have a lot of guys in the media who tie-back to the Oilers in some ways, much more than the Flames. So, they are naturally more inclined to wave their pom poms for the Oilers.



With that being said, Flames NEED to ice a top-tier product CONSISTENTLY.



The last 20 years - barely any playoff success to speak of. Occasional 'regular season' glory, followed by 'did not make the playoffs'. What superstar is there to cheer? Gaudreau and Tkachuk were the only 2, and now there are zero.


There isn't really any conspiracy. Oilers are unashamedly embarrassing at patting themselves on their backs. They never stopped patting themselves on their backs even through them being the most embarrassing team in all of professional sports. That's who they are. I don't want the Flames to be like this.


However, if you want more fans, more ticket sales, higher priced tickets, more away fans, more merchandise, more media spotlight, more avenues of revenue - then fricken win. That's it.


Rebuild the right way. Don't take stupid shortcuts and turn this team back into a flip-flopping bubble team with no playoff success. How many new fans have the Oilers made in the last 5-10 years? A heck of a lot more than the Flames made. You don't have to be embarrassingly bad like the non-tankers who were simply bad and won the lottery - that's not the point i am making here. Oilers were a horrificly-run organization who fluked out and won a lottery. That's not some kind of model to follow. What I am stating here is that winning sells PERIOD.



Oh, and BTW, ice a product that is enjoyable to watch as well, especially during this rebuild phase. Don't take a shortcut, but make it fun. No boring trap, no dump and chase and dump and chase and not ever make an exciting play (ala Brent Sutter, ala one of the GGs (or both!!), ala Geoff Ward). Get Pospisil some protection too - I don't want that kid having to play a different style, nor do I want his career to end from a fight.


Just don't take shortcuts. Build this team with patience, or once the shine of the new building wears out, more apathy will set-in again. Calgary needs to draft and develop a core - there are no Tkachuks and Gaudreaus clamouring to play here. Draft them. Develop them. Build a good team around them. Everything else will take care of itself.

[FlamesAddiction]

Originally Posted by Calgary4LIfe

There isn't really any conspiracy. Oilers are unashamedly embarrassing at patting themselves on their backs. They never stopped patting themselves on their backs even through them being the most embarrassing team in all of professional sports. That's who they are. I don't want the Flames to be like this.

Definitely not a conspiracy. There is nothing about Edmonton or their tacky franchise that is so special, it warrants special treatment. If the same historical scenario played out anywhere, the effect would be the same.

I hate the saying, but it applies here. It is what it is. Generational players and dynasties build feedback loops that continue for generations. The Habs are still benefiting from a legacy that isn't even in living memory for most fans these days. Dead players from those teams have almost the same marketability as the ones living today. Franchises can live off of that for a long time and creates its own gravity both for retaining fans and players. I doubt McDavid was at all thrilled about going to Edmonton, but there probably was a silver lining about going to a franchise with some lore around it.

Greyshep has it right. It's the front runner mentality of casual fans that really drives the media narrative. The Oilers built a brand in the 1980s and once a brand is built, it is hard to dismantle it. The fandom gets passed down to the next generation of fans. It was a huge factor in how the media and casual NHL fans were able to look past a decade of futility and still have them on a pedestal.

As Flames fans, we have a separate impression of what the brand means, but for people not so close to ground zero, it's easy to look past how the Oilers got there and exclude that from the brand. The Flames tried to build a brand by having a never say die attitude and taking pride in doing things the hard way. While these are nice qualities and something to be proud about, nobody outside of die hard fans care about those things. It doesn't sell advertising space on TSN, CBC, or Sportsnet.

[Badgers Nose]

Originally Posted by TOfan

This seems a little Tim-foil hat-ish to me.

If the media is indifferent towards the flames right now it’s because they’ve put together an indifferent product. If it was the Flames who wound up with a lottery win in 2015 (which btw wasn’t out of hand at the start of the season, many had the Flames at the bottom of the league) and McDavid was a Flames, the same attention the media is heaping on the Oilers would have been heaped on the Flames.

The Flames aren’t the black hat villains right now that the media secretly dislikes, they’re just not a very good hockey team.

And apart from the exodus and what Conroy may or may not be doing (and calling what he is doing), the Flames are also not very interesting.