Solar power systems for the home

[#-3]

So you did still pay the fees, but your system is 'overbuilt' for your consumption on that months bill, so you actually received a credit.

[the-rasta-masta]

Originally Posted by #-3

So you did still pay the fees, but your system is 'overbuilt' for your consumption on that months bill, so you actually received a credit.

The delivery fees have fixed and variable components. If you never pulled from the grid at all, but were still attached with a meter, you'd still have a roughly $20-30 bill each month depending on where you live. The variable sides of those costs will come down significantly on your bill due to the Solar production.

You'd also have the credits from any excess that you are selling back to the grid. In the over production months you'd get the benefit with Solar Club of selling the excess back at $0.30/kWh. In the lower generation months, you're only selling back your excess at the fixed rate (Unfortunately you can't charge back the delivery fees), so it's actually most economic in those non Solar Club months to change your energy habits and use the electricity produced, even before selling back to the grid since those credits will only offset your on grid consumption but not your delivery. Starting to run high volume appliances during the daylight production hours makes a big difference in the overall return, if you can run your dishwasher, washer and dryer, etc... during the production hours you're going to see a bigger benefit on your bill rather than selling back for a credit.

[#-3]

Sounds good, I'm going to look at a second opinion.

But the offer I got was 17 x 460W panels, 99% of annual usage. For $186 / month for 10 years.

I look at my past 12 months, and I've averaged $101 in electricity + $99.50 in fees. Basically $200.

I figured just looking at the bill the admin / access would apply no mater what, for ~ $20. But it's the other $80 in Distribution and Transmission I was not sure about.

[Benched]

Take it with a HUGE grain of salt:
While I was getting installed I also was trying to figure out the 'fees' portion of costs with my solar to understand the potential cost savings there. This is for residential (different fees for different types of buildings) in Calgary (other areas have different fee calculations) and I'm not an expert in the field, just sleuthed out a bit on the internet so it may or may not be accurate.

Distribution = flat $0.6479/day + $0.013033/kWh
Transmission charge = $0.042094/kWh
Local Access = 11.11% of RRO/kWh + 11.11% of your Distribution charge + 11.11% of your Transmission charge

So lowering the amount of kWh power you draw will affect the distribution charge in that you will be charged less on the $0.013033/kWh portion. (your daily is flat and no way to avoid it if you are connected to the grid/have a meter, as referenced above)

Lowering the amount of kWh power you draw will affect the transmission charge

Lowering the amount of kWh power you draw will affect the Local Access Fee because the other 2 fees are lower, so 11.11% of lower = lower. And 11.11% of less kWh drawn is lower.


Based on early results my fees since solar installed (Feb) are:
Distribution is about 3% higher (not sure why, this seems odd, maybe just high winter months ruining my averages)
Transmission is about 30% lower
Local Access is about 35% lower

VERY small sample size to be sure. Worth noting that this data is for Feb-April 22nd so I was a net consumer. Starting this billing cycle for April 22nd-May I'll be a net exporter and it may be more favorable.


So I'd say you save on fees, unknown % at this stage of the game, maybe 30-70% is a good window to guess at, over the year averaged out to 50%? (Even if you net export, you are drawing at night when you are not producing solar [unless you have batteries] so you will have draw + transmission fees.) *shrug*

Anything you sell = credits which is pretty apparent. The harder part to figure out is the part you produce and self-consume, as that is where you will save in fees by not pulling from the grid. It's also pretty subjective to each person's lifestyle and when they use power. I know people that only do laundry during the day for example, while the sun is shining and their panels are producing.

[the-rasta-masta]

Originally Posted by #-3

Sounds good, I'm going to look at a second opinion.

But the offer I got was 17 x 460W panels, 99% of annual usage. For $186 / month for 10 years.

I look at my past 12 months, and I've averaged $101 in electricity + $99.50 in fees. Basically $200.

I figured just looking at the bill the admin / access would apply no mater what, for ~ $20. But it's the other $80 in Distribution and Transmission I was not sure about.

Our pricing would come in below that. If you're interested in a quote from Solar YYC, just send me your email over PM and I can put something together for you.

[DoubleK]

Originally Posted by #-3

I figured just looking at the bill the admin / access would apply no mater what, for ~ $20. But it's the other $80 in Distribution and Transmission I was not sure about.

It's only when you actually do the math, it really shows you why net metering is so advantageous for home solar.

[Bill Bumface]

Originally Posted by the-rasta-masta

Our pricing would come in below that. If you're interested in a quote from Solar YYC, just send me your email over PM and I can put something together for you.

SolarYCC has great prices (and a really good sales/project management team). I mentioned I couldn't go with them because of my steep roof, but they would have been a front runner otherwise.

The only downside is they use APsystems inverters, and I prefer the Enphase micro inverters, especially do to some partial shading for a bunch of our install.

[the-rasta-masta]

Originally Posted by Bill Bumface

SolarYCC has great prices (and a really good sales/project management team). I mentioned I couldn't go with them because of my steep roof, but they would have been a front runner otherwise.

The only downside is they use APsystems inverters, and I prefer the Enphase micro inverters, especially do to some partial shading for a bunch of our install.

I always feel bad when we get a client with a steep roof that we can’t install on. It’s one of the tradeoffs to keep a top quality in house install team. Those steeper roofs (above 10/12 pitch) are so sketchy when you’re up there lugging around 50-80 pound panels and equipment, and being tied off almost makes it more dangerous when you’re maneuvering around ropes of the other installers on the roof. I’m in sales but I’ve been up on those roofs and they are precarious.

The Enphase inverters do have some bells and whistles, but I honestly think the AP Systems inverters are more bang for the buck when you consider the almost $1/watt price increase. Enphase is no more reliable, and the support from the factory and ease of warranty claims makes dealing with APSystems allows for a smoother client experience from what I’ve worked through in the past.

[Regorium]

We're considering a new build house that comes with two furnaces but no AC's. We'd have to get AC's installed as is.

Would it be crazy to replace both with heat pumps, even if we don't have solar yet? I'd presume we'd get solar within 2-3 years of moving into the new house, but would the costs in those 2-3 years be astronomical?

I think we are still required to get the gas hookup so still paying a bit of the fixed cost, so wondering if we're just out to lunch.

[calgarygeologist]

How much variability in watts do you guys have at peak production because I'm trying to figure out if I have two panels which might have an issue? From looking at my data, at peak production these two panels are doing ~285 watts and ~295 watts while adjacent panels are ~310 to 321 (321 being my max capacity.) This shouldn't be a shading issue, maybe those two panels are dirtier than others (bird poop or something) or maybe there is an issue.

Thoughts?

[Torture]

Originally Posted by calgarygeologist

How much variability in watts do you guys have at peak production because I'm trying to figure out if I have two panels which might have an issue? From looking at my data, at peak production these two panels are doing ~285 watts and ~295 watts while adjacent panels are ~310 to 321 (321 being my max capacity.) This shouldn't be a shading issue, maybe those two panels are dirtier than others (bird poop or something) or maybe there is an issue.

Thoughts?

Mine is a new install (~5 weeks) so bird poop or dirt wouldn't be an issue yet and not a huge sample size, but generally all of my panels seem to be within 5-10 watts of one another. (Only exception is when shading becomes a factor....like in the evening I can see the difference the shadow of my neighbour's chimney stack makes on 2 panels compared to the rest of the system )

[the-rasta-masta]

Originally Posted by calgarygeologist

How much variability in watts do you guys have at peak production because I'm trying to figure out if I have two panels which might have an issue? From looking at my data, at peak production these two panels are doing ~285 watts and ~295 watts while adjacent panels are ~310 to 321 (321 being my max capacity.) This shouldn't be a shading issue, maybe those two panels are dirtier than others (bird poop or something) or maybe there is an issue.

Thoughts?

Are the two panels you referring to more in the sun than the others? Panel efficiency actually can drop due to heat, which is why our market optimizes Solar a bit better since we’re not getting the consistent heat levels of say a California/Texas/Arizona.

If they’re not any more exposed to the sun, if it’s not a shading issue, and if the panels aren’t dirty (doubtful they are with the amount of rain we’ve had), than it’s potentially an inverter issue (assuming you have Microinverters that take 2 panels per inverter).

[the-rasta-masta]

Also.. if you’re not using micro inverters and have a string inverter system, it could also be optimizers causing the issue.

[Since1984]

I am currently getting quotes on a 10-13 KW system for the house. I am looking for as much info I can to make an educated decision on the system I want.

I have quotes From SolarYYC, Xolar and Kuby.

Requested one from Zeno.

Are there any companies to avoid? Technologies to avoid/insist on?

[the-rasta-masta]

Avoid Fluent. Go for Microinverters over string inverters as it allows for easier expansion should your consumption rise, rather than needing to replace a centralized inverter. Look for companies that are building in 9 inch setbacks (borders) without panels encroaching on those roof edges, it’s important to avoid drainage issues and minimize wind strain under the panels. If a company is telling you they are getting you significantly above the current regulations of a 100% production offset, that’s a red flag as the only way that would be approved for permitting would be if there’s some system losses they aren’t telling you about. The highest variance above 100% that we see approved is 102%.

Avoid companies that are using sub contractors for install, it’s often sold to the highest bidding general contractor who has little to no experience installing solar. As with any renovation project, if you’re seeing one price that is significantly lower than the others, avoid that contractor.

Really, most companies are using the same technology in terms of equipment. You want the design to be accurate (make sure they are modelling in all trees, neighbouring homes, anything that can have an affect on shading on your roof. Key difference is customer service and response, installation quality and the service they will provide after install. Lots of companies only offer 3-5 year contractor warranties and are difficult to actually get to do anything after install if you run into issues. Hope that helps.

EDIT: also, in most cases it’s better to go directly to a company rather than letting a door to door salesman give you a quote. Some of the door knockers are sales brokerages that just sell the contract to a bigger company to actually do the install, and it’s not uncommon that I see those projects come in $5-10k more expensive becuase they are building in margins for themselves.

[calgarygeologist]

Originally Posted by the-rasta-masta

Are the two panels you referring to more in the sun than the others? Panel efficiency actually can drop due to heat, which is why our market optimizes Solar a bit better since we’re not getting the consistent heat levels of say a California/Texas/Arizona.

If they’re not any more exposed to the sun, if it’s not a shading issue, and if the panels aren’t dirty (doubtful they are with the amount of rain we’ve had), than it’s potentially an inverter issue (assuming you have Microinverters that take 2 panels per inverter).

The panels I referenced are in the same area and get the same sun exposure, basically in a T orientation. It is just those two which seem to be producing less, amongst 12 panels actually.

[the-rasta-masta]

Originally Posted by calgarygeologist

The panels I referenced are in the same area and get the same sun exposure, basically in a T orientation. It is just those two which seem to be producing less, amongst 12 panels actually.

Most likely an inverter defect from factory. I’d notify your installer right away.

[SeeGeeWhy]

Originally Posted by Benched

Take it with a HUGE grain of salt:
While I was getting installed I also was trying to figure out the 'fees' portion of costs with my solar to understand the potential cost savings there. This is for residential (different fees for different types of buildings) in Calgary (other areas have different fee calculations) and I'm not an expert in the field, just sleuthed out a bit on the internet so it may or may not be accurate.

Distribution = flat $0.6479/day + $0.013033/kWh
Transmission charge = $0.042094/kWh
Local Access = 11.11% of RRO/kWh + 11.11% of your Distribution charge + 11.11% of your Transmission charge

So lowering the amount of kWh power you draw will affect the distribution charge in that you will be charged less on the $0.013033/kWh portion. (your daily is flat and no way to avoid it if you are connected to the grid/have a meter, as referenced above)

Lowering the amount of kWh power you draw will affect the transmission charge

Lowering the amount of kWh power you draw will affect the Local Access Fee because the other 2 fees are lower, so 11.11% of lower = lower. And 11.11% of less kWh drawn is lower.


Based on early results my fees since solar installed (Feb) are:
Distribution is about 3% higher (not sure why, this seems odd, maybe just high winter months ruining my averages)
Transmission is about 30% lower
Local Access is about 35% lower

VERY small sample size to be sure. Worth noting that this data is for Feb-April 22nd so I was a net consumer. Starting this billing cycle for April 22nd-May I'll be a net exporter and it may be more favorable.


So I'd say you save on fees, unknown % at this stage of the game, maybe 30-70% is a good window to guess at, over the year averaged out to 50%? (Even if you net export, you are drawing at night when you are not producing solar [unless you have batteries] so you will have draw + transmission fees.) *shrug*

Anything you sell = credits which is pretty apparent. The harder part to figure out is the part you produce and self-consume, as that is where you will save in fees by not pulling from the grid. It's also pretty subjective to each person's lifestyle and when they use power. I know people that only do laundry during the day for example, while the sun is shining and their panels are producing.

Thanks for the real world example, it's rare to get this good data.

The part about seeing an increase on the per kWh costs when you were expecting a decrease... this is the part that never made sense to me when being pitched.

The distribution, transmission and local access service stuff are going to be doing their thing whether you're taking kWh from the grid OR putting it to the grid.

If I owned power lines, why would I charge you to deliver you power, but not take your power to someone else that is using it? In fact, I now have to manage a two-way situation on your site where I only used to have to deal with one direction. That sounds like more work and more complexity for me to manage, even in a "net zero" consumption situation.

I blew the dust off my old Zeno quote from Sep 2022 after seeing a few neighbours finally get systems put up this month. They sized a 15kW system at a cost of $44,333.56 + GST. This was projected to produce 14,103kWh, or 104% of energy offset.

Digging into my bills, we actually take about 8,120 kWh/y. Isn't 14,103 / 8,120 1.73, not 1.04? Seems like they were just trying to max out what they could've captured from the greener homes lending program. Surely enmax wouldn't have allowed that system to be permitted as quoted seeing as they have access to what they actually deliver to us.

We lay out $1,600/y in total electricity charges in a year at a fixed rate of 6.59 c/kWh (will be closer to $2,000/y when we lock in at currents offer closer to 11). $500 of that is energy only. I assumed we wouldn't be avoiding the non-energy fees if we turned our house into an effing pseudo-merchant power plant, and in fact might pay more of those to help us sell those juicy electrons.

I also assumed one might be able to buy a BESS and sell into our increasingly frequent max legal price hours which would fetch $1/kWh. But it doesn't appear you can do that. You're forced to sell at some fixed seasonal rate that's just giving Enmax or whoever is pooling your production the opportunity to capture the difference between what they pay you and that juicy legal limit.

What a messed up, garbage system we are creating. How would I ever "recover" 45k capex before the system disintegrated into smitherenes, by MAYBE reducing my costs by a few hundred dollars a year?

Asinine economics. These things are just another way to show off to your neighbourhood how much idle cash you (had) on hand.

[SeeGeeWhy]

Generously assuming no degradation on the panels for 20 years at that production rate, that's a lifetime production of 282,060kWh at a unit price of 16.5 cents/kWh. Over 3x what I was paying on an energy basis at the time, and still a good 50% higher than today's bum touching offer.

Again, what am I getting wrong about my math? Why is everyone saying this crap is cheap? It is NOT CHEAP.

[Benched]

Just an update on my numbers....a few days from including my May-June bill or I'd have another data point, but oh well:

Average 2023 March-July (pre-solar)
Distro: $26.50
Trans: $23.25
Local: $18.23

Average 2024 March-July (solar)
Distro: $28.35
Trans: $14.65
Local: $9.45

So again I'm still not sure why distribution charge is slightly higher/basically the same, while the other 2 fees drastically dropped.

The fact that the Transmission charge dropped so much - my HUNCH is that the 'consumer' pays that charge. So when you sell to the grid you do not pay transmission fees. Otherwise with the solar I produced last month+my draw, I FAR outpaced my average and it should have been an otherwise expensive month if I paid to push my energy to the grid.

Transmission charge last month: $10.84cents. 262kWh drawn from the grid, 242.5kWh self produced and consumed, 481kWh pushed to the grid.

And using the above math 0.042094/kWh for transmission charge, my 262kWh = $11 and I paid $10.84. Think that's proof you don't pay transmission on pushes.

If we do the same for the distribution charge - I paid $26.93 last month. Using my 262kWh consumed from grid you get $3.41. Then + 30 day fee@0.6479/day = $19.44, so $22.85 total...below what I paid. But if you use the 262kWh consumed from grid + the 481kWh we pushed to the grid you get $9.68. That added up is $29.12...over what I paid. So basically I suspect I'm incorrect here somewhere, either my fee values, or not understanding what is included in that 0.013033/kWh calculation. Requires more digging