[Kent Wilson Article] “self-satisfied mediocrity”

[nik-]

Originally Posted by dino7c

Flames won two division titles before you know whos bailed...2nd overall one year. They were on the right track. Lots of teams lose multiple times in the playoffs before they pull it off.

That team got smashed in the playoffs both times. They weren't on the right track.

[Hot_Flatus]

Originally Posted by PepsiFree

They traded Lindholm, Tanev, Hanifin, Zadorov, Toffoli… a handful of their very best players from the season before. They’re going to trade Markstrom and, possibly, multiple other players. They focused on acquiring young players and draft picks. They were one of the worst teams post-deadline.

What direction would people like them to go that the actual actions (not rumours, not hearsay, not “well we would have liked to do this other thing but we didn’t”) don’t indicate?

You need only look at the history of the Flames over the last 20+ years to know that they likely won't stay the course. The franchise will pull the pin on the "rebuild" or "retool" too quickly (like they did the last time) and push against being bad enough that they draft in the top ten or top five 2-3 times in order to accumulate elite talent.

Now, if they do go out and move more players between now and the start of the season and resist rounding out the lineup with UFA talent, it may just signal that they are going to let this play out and take a different approach.

Until that time passes and we do see a firm commitment to the tear down, you simply can't give the meatball response or benefit of the doubt statements to the franchise that seems to keep trying to jam a square peg into a round hole.

[Winsor_Pilates]

Originally Posted by Macho0978

Almost all rebuilds aren't planned. Teams put themselves in that situation for various reasons. Terrible management, money issues, sustained success that comes to an end. Whatever the reason, some when they get there embrace it and stay there are build through the draft. Others try to fix it quickly, Flames need to be patient

Good point.
We're there now, so time to embrace it and roll with it.

[Macho0978]

Originally Posted by ComixZone

Regardless of looking back at the last era, you have to look at where we are now.

We have zero stars. We need the draft picks to get our stars. The last era was defined by some excellent value being extracted out of less than ideal draft spost - getting Tkachuk at 6th is excellent work, getting Monahan at 6th was great, and even getting Bennett (what Bennett has turned into) at 4th is far from a disaster.

You know what they didn't get though? MacKinnon, or Barkov, or Draisaitl, or Ekblad, Makar, Hedman, Stamkos etc. The spots that they got to draft from, while they did good - did not give the Flames a good enough opportunity to become a Championship quality team.

The Flames, outside of getting their top-3 picks, did everything as well as could be expected but they could not overcome the skill deficit that they were facing due to a lack of having the opportunity to make Championship-quality picks.

But the Flames never have any luck too, If you compare Florida 5 year run at the bottom where they drafted top 3 4 times vs the Flames 4 years run at the bottom where the drafted top 3 0 times.

Florida's run:
2009-10 - 77 points - picks Gudbranson 3rd OV
2010-11 - 72 points - picks Huberdeau 3rd OV
2011-12 - 94 points - makes playoffs
2012-13 - 62 points (point pace) - picks Barkov 2nd OV
2013-14 - 66 points - picks Ekblad 1st OV

Flames run:
2012-13 - 72 points - picks Monahan 6th OV
2013-14 - 77 points - picks Bennett 4th OV
2014-15 - 97 points - makes playoffs
2015-16 - 77 points - picks Tkachuk 6th OV

Florida stays at the bottom longer and has 2 years a good 10 point lower than the rest of the rebuild. But they also have 2 years mid 70's in points, yet still get 3rd OV.

Both teams have a random good season, but Florida make the playoffs in a year where the draft is terrible. Flames have a random great year when the top of the draft is loaded with superstars.

In the end a bit of luck could have helped but the Flames never dipped into that 60-point range that is needed. They really screwed that up in those 1dt 2 years of the rebuild. Getting Tkachuk worked out as he probably is the 2nd best player from that draft. The Flames missed out on a guy like Makar too by moving up the standings 1 year too soon.

[GreenLantern2814]

Originally Posted by GFG#1

I get it to some extent and internally you can say playoff rounds won count, but IMO there are really 2 goals.
1 get into the playoffs
2 Win the cup

As a fan I could care less if they won 7 rounds, they haven't won the cup.
internally for the organization you can look at them as steps, but in another 10 years if the team has won 20-30 playoff rounds and no cups, are they or have they really been great?

You can add a bunch of small goals to the list, like win the division, win the presidents trophy, win the Jennings award, win a round, win two rounds win the conference finals etc. But at the end of the day if you don't win the cup, none of those things really matter. Don't get me wrong a run is great as a fan. I just don't think it makes a team great unless they win a cup or multiple cups.

Anything can happen if you get in, so just get in.
after that anything short of winning the cup is a disappointment.

These teams make generations of new fans every time they advance a round in the playoffs.

As a fan of a team, it’s more fun when they lose in round 2 or 3 rather than losing in round 1.

And yeah, winning 20 or 30 playoff rounds in the span of ten years would make you a great organization, regardless of cups.

That’s sustained success, on the backs of likely the same core of players, with a strong culture… you dream about that kind of stability.

That’s what Boston does.

[Macho0978]

Originally Posted by GreenLantern2814

These teams make generations of new fans every time they advance a round in the playoffs.

As a fan of a team, it’s more fun when they lose in round 2 or 3 rather than losing in round 1.

And yeah, winning 20 or 30 playoff rounds in the span of ten years would make you a great organization, regardless of cups.

That’s sustained success, on the backs of likely the same core of players, with a strong culture… you dream about that kind of stability.

That’s what Boston does.

You're not winning a cup without a team that likely is very good for a few years in a row. I personally would rather rebuild more than half of the next 15 years to get 1 cup than win 20 rounds off playoffs in a 10-year stretch, but win 0 cups.

I can't see winning 30 rounds in a 10 year stretch and not get a cup. 10 straight years in the finals no wins? Are we the Bills?

[Robbob]

Originally Posted by Paulie Walnuts

Don't forget sending out a 2nd rounder for Lazar. Wasting picks on depth players who never played for us.

The Hamilton trade wasn't even that bad. What sewered us was the Hamonic trade.

I don't fault the Lazar trade either. If you look back at the that second round, he has had a better NHL career that almost all of them that were available there. Knowing that he was traded for the pick that was Formenton, makes me like the trade more. Maybe Maxime Comtois would be better. Maybe.

[PepsiFree]

Originally Posted by Hot_Flatus

You need only look at the history of the Flames over the last 20+ years to know that they likely won't stay the course. The franchise will pull the pin on the "rebuild" or "retool" too quickly (like they did the last time) and push against being bad enough that they draft in the top ten or top five 2-3 times in order to accumulate elite talent.

Now, if they do go out and move more players between now and the start of the season and resist rounding out the lineup with UFA talent, it may just signal that they are going to let this play out and take a different approach.

Until that time passes and we do see a firm commitment to the tear down, you simply can't give the meatball response or benefit of the doubt statements to the franchise that seems to keep trying to jam a square peg into a round hole.

Nah. I don’t really care what happened 10, 20, 30 years ago. Different management all the way through.

A “firm commitment to the tear down” is just such a subjective thing, sure looks like one to me. Personally, it just seems needlessly miserable to let management decisions from 15 years ago decide how you judge management decisions of today. Especially in the NHL, where even a decade is an eternity and few people last more than a few years on the job. What “the franchise” is, is largely just a made up thing people have compiled from memory that isn’t really a reflection of what it is today.

I expect them to trade more players, but I know there’s no urgency to do it. I also expect them to sign UFAs, because you have to ice a team, and every player can be an asset down the road.

I’ll take good team building and smart asset management over “trade everyone right now and sign no one!” Seems like a bad approach.

[mrdonkey]

Originally Posted by PepsiFree

Nah. I don’t really care what happened 10, 20, 30 years ago. Different management all the way through.

A “firm commitment to the tear down” is just such a subjective thing, sure looks like one to me. Personally, it just seems needlessly miserable to let management decisions from 15 years ago decide how you judge management decisions of today. Especially in the NHL, where even a decade is an eternity and few people last more than a few years on the job. What “the franchise” is, is largely just a made up thing people have compiled from memory that isn’t really a reflection of what it is today.

I expect them to trade more players, but I know there’s no urgency to do it. I also expect them to sign UFAs, because you have to ice a team, and every player can be an asset down the road.

I’ll take good team building and smart asset management over “trade everyone right now and sign no one!” Seems like a bad approach.

This completely ignores the fact that the guy at the top, who is a known meddler, has not changed.

[Cecil Terwilliger]

Originally Posted by mrdonkey

This completely ignores the fact that the guy at the top, who is a known meddler, has not changed.

God?

[Igottago]

Originally Posted by Cecil Terwilliger

God?

Depends what happens in the finals.

[PepsiFree]

Originally Posted by mrdonkey

This completely ignores the fact that the guy at the top, who is a known meddler, has not changed.

Yeah, because it doesn’t really matter. Nobody knows to what extent he meddles. Some insiders say a lot, some say no more than any other owner. It’s

But if you really think he has that much control and has kept the franchise exactly the same since 1994 then it seems insane to even continue discussing any moves the Flames ever make since you’ve already decided the next 30 years are going to be the exact same as the last 30 years.

Why even watch? Take a break until he dies or sells the team if his control is that tight and he’s never done anything different.

[Hackey]

Originally Posted by nik-

That team got smashed in the playoffs both times. They weren't on the right track.

Not to mention, they were hot and cold every year. They were also not built for playoff hockey.

[Hackey]

Originally Posted by ComixZone

Regardless of looking back at the last era, you have to look at where we are now.

We have zero stars. We need the draft picks to get our stars. The last era was defined by some excellent value being extracted out of less than ideal draft spost - getting Tkachuk at 6th is excellent work, getting Monahan at 6th was great, and even getting Bennett (what Bennett has turned into) at 4th is far from a disaster.

You know what they didn't get though? MacKinnon, or Barkov, or Draisaitl, or Ekblad, Makar, Hedman, Stamkos etc. The spots that they got to draft from, while they did good - did not give the Flames a good enough opportunity to become a Championship quality team.

The Flames, outside of getting their top-3 picks, did everything as well as could be expected but they could not overcome the skill deficit that they were facing due to a lack of having the opportunity to make Championship-quality picks.

Vancouver gifted them Tkachuk. The Flames were super lucky there. If we land Juolevi the team is not very good. Then they also got pretty lucky with Gaudreau. What are the odds we find another Gaudreau in the later rounds in the next few seasons? Probably not very high. Which is exactly why you need high picks so you increase your odds of finding elite stars and then hopefully you get some luck like they did with a Tkachuk or Gaudreau to help put your team over the top.

[Jay Random]

Originally Posted by Hackey

Vancouver gifted them Tkachuk. The Flames were super lucky there. If we land Juolevi the team is not very good.

The only gift is that Vancouver saved the Flames from having to trade up to get Tkachuk. They had their sights set on him at the time, and were prepared to trade as high as the #3 pick to get him. Then it turned out that all the teams picking ahead of them had other (foolish) ideas, so they didn't waste the assets to make that trade.

They were getting Tkachuk either way.

[DiracSpike]

Originally Posted by nik-

That team got smashed in the playoffs both times. They weren't on the right track.

Nah man topping out with 5 playoff wins once every 8 years screams organizational success to me.

Haven't had more than 5 playoff wins for 20 years

[Hackey]

Originally Posted by Jay Random

The only gift is that Vancouver saved the Flames from having to trade up to get Tkachuk. They had their sights set on him at the time, and were prepared to trade as high as the #3 pick to get him. Then it turned out that all the teams picking ahead of them had other (foolish) ideas, so they didn't waste the assets to make that trade.

They were getting Tkachuk either way.

Teams almost never trade away top 5 picks so that's a massive assumption on your part. And assuming the Flames just magically knew the exact draft order with certainty is another massive assumption.

[Paulie Walnuts]

Originally Posted by Hackey

Teams almost never trade away top 5 picks so that's a massive assumption on your part. And assuming the Flames just magically knew the exact draft order with certainty is another massive assumption.

They had a trade worked for #3. That's when they found out the Jackets draft plans that would flip the draft.

Leading into the draft Vancouver was heavily rumoured to be in love with Juloevi.

It’s in Burkes book.

[Jay Random]

Originally Posted by Hackey

Teams almost never trade away top 5 picks so that's a massive assumption on your part.

It was reported at the time. I'm not making this up.

And assuming the Flames just magically knew the exact draft order with certainty is another massive assumption.

Same.

Look, I'm not making any assumptions at all here. In fact, the whole thing was brought up here on CP recently. The facts are what they are. Insulting me isn't going to change them.

[Dan02]

There's no point in attempting a rebuild right now, Huberdeaus contract screws up any chance of that because as your young talent starts to come into their own and need some money you've still got him on the books.

We probably need to struggle through 4 years of mediocrity before a rebuild can even be contemplated. We're headed for a Edmontonian stretch of darkness.

I'd take all our picks in this draft as see if anyone whose entering their windows wants to swap them one for one for 2028 picks.