Israel declares war on Hamas

[Bownesian]

I expect it will be impossible for that person for some time, as visa holders from Gaza were part of the rape-murder-kidnap gangs.

[blankall]

Originally Posted by Bownesian

I expect it will be impossible for that person for some time, as visa holders from Gaza were part of the rape-murder-kidnap gangs.

Israel does not put restrictions on Israeli citizens who are also Arabs. There are about 2.5 million Arab citizens of Israel. It's not an insignificant number. Arabs also own considerable amounts of land in the Israeli settlements, particularly those in Jerusalem.

[Zary's-Mustache]

So the Arab Israelis who are Muslim do not wanna kill every jew?

I wonder why that is.

[Fuzz]

Originally Posted by blankall

That poster also stated they were from the West Bank. The rights of Israelis in the Palestinian controlled areas are considerably different then those for Palestinians.

Israel can do no wrong to you, eh? Probably best not to bring up how Palestinians are treated in what is supposedly their land.


https://www.npr.org/2024/03/23/12366...ement-outposts


This is savage ####, man. But we keep getting told in this thread how if only Hamas would be better, there could be peace. This is not evidence of that. It's illegal and indefensible(go give it a try, though!).

[Skootenbeeten]

Originally Posted by Bownesian

I expect it will be impossible for that person for some time, as visa holders from Gaza were part of the rape-murder-kidnap gangs.

Weren't the rape-murder-kidnap gangs blamed solely on Israel? I've heard on here that Netanyahu funded them and told them who to rape and what dogs to shoot.

[Zary's-Mustache]

Originally Posted by Skootenbeeten

Weren't the rape-murder-kidnap gangs blamed solely on Israel? I've heard on here that Netanyahu funded them and told them who to rape and what dogs to shoot.

Yes Netanyahu did fund them and support them quite literally. Maybe do some research before you try to be funny and sarcastic again.

Here is some reading you can do.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.cbc.ca/amp/1.7010035

[blankall]

Originally Posted by Fuzz

Israel can do no wrong to you, eh? Probably best not to bring up how Palestinians are treated in what is supposedly their land.


https://www.npr.org/2024/03/23/12366...ement-outposts


This is savage ####, man. But we keep getting told in this thread how if only Hamas would be better, there could be peace. This is not evidence of that. It's illegal and indefensible(go give it a try, though!).

And we keep getting told that Israel is the only one responsible for anything here, including somehow having the Palestinians elect and support Hamas, even though Israel has been at war with Hamas for many decades.

No, I do not agree with the analogy of apartheid. Israel and Palestine are two separate countries, and the citizens of those countries have different rights based on their nationalities. The Palestinians and the Israelis have been consistent aggressors.

To argue that Israel has some obligation to allow free movement of citizens of a hostile nation is absurd. Particularly in the context of Palestinian militant campaigns that routinely take advantage of their militants not identifying themselves as militants.

[Skootenbeeten]

Originally Posted by Zary's-Mustache

Yes Netanyahu did fund them and support them quite literally. Maybe do some research before you try to be funny and sarcastic again.

Here is some reading you can do.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.cbc.ca/amp/1.7010035

He funded then with the hopes they would kill all Israelis? That's diabolical. Truely a madman that wanted Hamas to continue attacking and not for some other reason.

[blankall]

Originally Posted by Zary's-Mustache

Yes Netanyahu did fund them and support them quite literally. Maybe do some research before you try to be funny and sarcastic again.

Here is some reading you can do.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.cbc.ca/amp/1.7010035

There's a huge difference between playing two enemies against each other and creating an enemy. Also, the article itself never states that Netanyahu funded Hamas. Only that he allowed funds from Qatar to enter Gaza to pay civil employees. Netanyahu released this money following international pressure to do so. When Israel was holding this money they were accused of collective punishment by withholding salaries from doctors, nurses, teachers, etc...

As for Netanyahu "begging" Qatar to fund Hamas:

https://www.ynetnews.com/article/bk8mgcefr

Between 2007 and 2014, Qatar provided Hamas with funds, away from any international oversight or review and from 2014 on, funding from Qatar was coordinated with the United States and Israel.

The 2014 war in Gaza was the turning point. The U.S., UN, Israel and Qatar decided soon after the war to set up a new system in which $30 million would be delivered to the coastal strip by Doha each month. Some $10 million was to buy fuel from Israel, needed to operate Gaza's power station, $10 million to pay the salaries of government employees, and the final $10 million was to be given in $100 stipends to some 100,000 Gazan families in need.

So it wasn't about Qatar increasing funding. It was about how to direct existing funding. Israel and the US hoped that they could convince Qatar to send 1/3 of the money directly to Israel (which would buy power for Gazans), 1/3 directly to public services, and 1/3 directly to Gazan families. A far superior system that Qatar just handing over random funds to Hamas.

That hardly sounds like funding a terrorist organization. It's also a no win situation for Israel. If they cut off funds, it genocide. If they allow funds its creating Hamas. People are constantly going on here about how Israel needs to make the lives of Gazans better to resolve the conflict....but apparently funding hospitals and schools, providing power, and providing money to desperate families is a big no.

Now point out all the times Israel has attacked Hamas. All the leaders they've killed or imprisoned, etc...

[PepsiFree]

Originally Posted by Skootenbeeten

He funded then with the hopes they would kill all Israelis? That's diabolical. Truely a madman that wanted Hamas to continue attacking and not for some other reason.

Yup, that’s what the article said. You’re really good at reading and people respect you.

[Flames Fan, Ph.D.]

Originally Posted by afc wimbledon

The tragedy for Palestinians and the thing that makes solving the conflict impossible is that all of these objections are reasonable and yet none of them are in any way attainable, with every loss their lives get worse, they lose more and more, nothing will change that in our lifetime, Israel has no reason to do anything beyond what they are doing and that isn't going to change either, maybe in 1 or 200 years things change but that is the timescale we are talking about

Takes some real lack of perspective to list a foundational bunch of 'we're going to take this land from you and split it and offer it to someone else' proposals as Palestinians refusing reasonable deals.

[PepsiFree]

Originally Posted by blankall

There's a huge difference between playing two enemies against each other and creating an enemy. Also, the article itself never states that Netanyahu funded Hamas. Only that he allowed funds from Qatar to enter Gaza to pay civil employees. Netanyahu released this money following international pressure to do so. When Israel was holding this money they were accused of collective punishment by withholding salaries from doctors, nurses, teachers, etc...

As for Netanyahu "begging" Qatar to fund Hamas:

https://www.ynetnews.com/article/bk8mgcefr



So it wasn't about Qatar increasing funding. It was about how to direct existing funding. Israel and the US hoped that they could convince Qatar to send 1/3 of the money directly to Israel, 1/3 directly to public services, and 1/3 directly to Gazan families. A far superior system that Qatar just handing over random funds to Hamas.

That hardly sounds like funding a terrorist organization. It's also a no win situation for Israel. If they cut off funds, it genocide. If they allow funds its creating Hamas. People are constantly going on here about how Israel needs to make the lives of Gazans better to resolve the conflict....but apparently funding hospitals and schools, providing power, and providing money to desperate families is a big no.

Now point out all the times Israel has attacked Hamas. All the leaders they've killed or imprisoned, etc...

He has quite literally advocated for funding Hamas to avoid a Palestinian state. Not sure how many times that needs to be posted before you stop pretending it never happened.

[blankall]

Originally Posted by PepsiFree

He has quite literally advocated for funding Hamas. Not sure how many times that needs to be posted before you stop pretending it never happened.

Hamas is the government. The fact that your oversimplifying paying civil servants like teachers and nurses with funding terrorism is baffling. Cutting off all money to Hamas would also mean cutting off all social programs for Gazans. Is that what you think Israel should have done?

Edit: I agree that Netanyahu, and other right wing Israelis, don't want a Palestinian state, and disagree with them. I also don't see how Netanyahu taking advantage of the situation in 2018, to play his enemies off each other, is the same as creating Hamas and putting them in power, which is the charge against him.

[Flames Fan, Ph.D.]

Originally Posted by PepsiFree

He has quite literally advocated for funding Hamas to avoid a Palestinian state. Not sure how many times that needs to be posted before you stop pretending it never happened.

Hope you're ready to post it again...

[PepsiFree]

Originally Posted by blankall

Hamas is the government. The fact that your oversimplifying paying civil servants like teachers and nurses with funding terrorism is baffling. Cutting off all money to Hamas would also mean cutting off all social programs for Gazans. Is that what you think Israel should have done?

Edit: I agree that Netanyahu, and other right wing Israelis, don't want a Palestinian state, and disagree with them. I also don't see how Netanyahu taking advantage of the situation in 2018, to play his enemies off each other, is the same as creating Hamas and putting them in power, which is the charge against him.

OK, well if you agree that they have specifically enabled and encouraged funding Hamas, the terrorist organization, with the express purpose of strengthening them to avoid a Palestinian state, then what are you arguing?

We’re not talking about just allowing aid. We’re talking about enabling Hamas to do what Hamas does, which is engaging in terrorism, which Israeli officials have encouraged, for their own gain. Why pretend it’s all some grand humanitarian play?

Let’s just call it what it is, right? We know what his intent is. Why are people pretending he’s a peacemaker who wants the Palestinians to have their own state if only they would get out of their own way?

He, and the right wing war mongers in his government, have to go. Period. That doesn’t mean Hamas doesn’t have to go, too, but Palestine without Hamas and with Netanyahu is not a state. Both have to go.

[blankall]

Originally Posted by PepsiFree

OK, well if you agree that they have specifically enabled and encouraged funding Hamas, the terrorist organization, with the express purpose of strengthening them to avoid a Palestinian state, then what are you arguing?

No. I do not. They went out of their way to divert funds away from Hamas and try to control them. You either cut off funding for Hamas or allow it and try and control it. Netanyahu is being criticized for the later choice.

According to people in here, it's lack of quality of life that creates terrorism, not funding. So which is it?

Originally Posted by PepsiFree

We’re not talking about just allowing aid. We’re talking about enabling Hamas to do what Hamas does, which is engaging in terrorism, which Israeli officials have encouraged, for their own gain. Why pretend it’s all some grand humanitarian play?

Let’s just call it what it is, right? We know what his intent is. Why are people pretending he’s a peacemaker who wants the Palestinians to have their own state if only they would get out of their own way?

No one has ever said Netanyahu is a peace maker. He's a military orientated former soldier. He's also a long-serving politician, who stays in power by courting the right wing. When the US puts pressure on him to make the lives of Gazans better, he is tasked with selling those concessions to right win members of his government.

[Fuzz]

Originally Posted by blankall

And we keep getting told that Israel is the only one responsible for anything here, including somehow having the Palestinians elect and support Hamas, even though Israel has been at war with Hamas for many decades.

No, I do not agree with the analogy of apartheid. Israel and Palestine are two separate countries, and the citizens of those countries have different rights based on their nationalities. The Palestinians and the Israelis have been consistent aggressors.

To argue that Israel has some obligation to allow free movement of citizens of a hostile nation is absurd. Particularly in the context of Palestinian militant campaigns that routinely take advantage of their militants not identifying themselves as militants.

You are either incredibly evasive, or incredibly simple. I know you aren't simple, sooo...why are you evading the substance of what I shared?


Do you support the settlers in the West Bank, or do you agree with 99% of the planet that they are at minimum illegal, and beyond that, evil and provocative, unfriendly and a severe barrier to any peace plan?

[afc wimbledon]

Originally Posted by Flames Fan, Ph.D.

Takes some real lack of perspective to list a foundational bunch of 'we're going to take this land from you and split it and offer it to someone else' proposals as Palestinians refusing reasonable deals.

I think you need to reread what I wrote, I was saying Palestinians desires, the reason they refused the deals, was reasonable and understandable but that each offer was (and is) the best of a ####ty deal they would ever get, that each time they held out for more they lost even more.

If you offered Palestinians right now the deal they quite reasonably refused in 1967 as not being enough they would think they died and went to heaven, whatever deal they are offered by Israel at the end of this cycle of violence will both be awful and also the best deal Palestinians will get, and once again I would lay money they will refuse it and their lives, their kids and grandkids lives will be a grim violent and poor.

There is no happy ending for Palestine, they will get no more than Israel wants to give them because while their resistance is annoying to Israel, Oct the 7th was even horrific, it isn't close to bad enough to change Israels policy, Israel is utterly in charge of what happens, they get to choose how much they give, they will give something to keep the US and Europe happy but it will be minimal, this isnt fair to Gaza or the West Bank but life is never fair

[Zary's-Mustache]

Originally Posted by Skootenbeeten

He funded then with the hopes they would kill all Israelis? That's diabolical. Truely a madman that wanted Hamas to continue attacking and not for some other reason.

Try again maybe this time you'll comprehend what you are reading.

[blankall]

Originally Posted by Fuzz

You are either incredibly evasive, or incredibly simple. I know you aren't simple, sooo...why are you evading the substance of what I shared?


Do you support the settlers in the West Bank, or do you agree with 99% of the planet that they are at minimum illegal, and beyond that, evil and provocative, unfriendly and a severe barrier to any peace plan?

I agree settlers are provocative, unfriendly and a severe barrier to any peace plan. The vast majority of them are children who are born there; those children are not evil. I do not see Jews moving back into areas historically inhabited by Jews as evil.

I also think anti-settler sentiment is used as a means to provide more Arab control over Jerusalem. As the majority of settlers live in and around Jerusalem, an area that has seen significant Arab settlement too.

I see a double standard, as the Palestinians are to be provided with a state that is ethnically and religiously homogenous despite the area being historically very very far from that.

I'm not evasive. I don't see things as simple black and white.