2024 Off-season trade rumours and speculation thread

[Paulie Walnuts]

Originally Posted by Aarongavey

Clearly it is A. Some people (who know a lot more about hockey than Flames Management) have determined that Markstrom is not possibly worth more than a 2nd and a middling prospect (despite almost every starting goalie going for more than that in recent years). I will take Some People on the internet over people involved in hockey any day of the week.

Can you provide examples of 35 year old goalies fetching a top 10 draft pick, along with a 23 year old C.

[Macho0978]

Originally Posted by Paulie Walnuts

Can you provide examples of 35 year old goalies fetching a top 10 draft pick, along with a 23 year old C.

Go back to start of last season when we did not sign Lindholm, Zadorov, Tanev and Hanifin. I personally wanted the Flames to move these players right away as I wanted to position higher in the draft vs get better returns at the deadline. The proposals floating around these guys all year had the Flames with:

3 1sts in 24 or multiple 1st in 24 and 25
3 2nds in 24 or multiple 2nds in 24 and 25
multiple blue-chip prospects
Young current roster top 6 forwards/top 4 dman

After the deadline based on the market Conroy received praise for his deadline moves.

We got Vancouver and Vegas (26) 1st but not much for 2nds and Hunter Brewski as a high rated prospect but still not a top 20 prospect league wide

It's amazing how returns still get way over projected, and some get upset when you say they are way off on the return.

[TOfan]

Originally Posted by dino7c

Are you a TO fan or a Flames fan from TO?
looking at the stanley cup final it's pretty hard to defend BT

Flames fan. Formerly lived in Toronto. Now live in Calgary, born and raised.

[Jiggy]

Originally Posted by howard_the_duck

Boomer implying the Flames believe Markstrom is worth more than 10OA.

I just don't see it.

He said what if the Flames would want 10 OA, plus a sweetner. He never said that's what he is hearing from the Flames side. A big difference.

[Bingo]

Originally Posted by dino7c

Are you a TO fan or a Flames fan from TO?
looking at the stanley cup final it's pretty hard to defend BT

Pretty easy if I cut and paste all the comments above saying everything is Edward's fault!

[howard_the_duck]

He didn't outright say he's hearing it, no.

[Paulie Walnuts]

Originally Posted by Macho0978

Go back to start of last season when we did not sign Lindholm, Zadorov, Tanev and Hanifin. I personally wanted the Flames to move these players right away as I wanted to position higher in the draft vs get better returns at the deadline. The proposals floating around these guys all year had the Flames with:

3 1sts in 24 or multiple 1st in 24 and 25
3 2nds in 24 or multiple 2nds in 24 and 25
multiple blue-chip prospects
Young current roster top 6 forwards/top 4 dman

After the deadline based on the market Conroy received praise for his deadline moves.

We got Vancouver and Vegas (26) 1st but not much for 2nds and Hunter Brewski as a high rated prospect but still not a top 20 prospect league wide

It's amazing how returns still get way over projected, and some get upset when you say they are way off on the return.

I think he hit a homerun with the Lindholm trade, Vancouver overpaid.

We got market value for the rest, I think we got excited for the first time having valuable assets on the market.

I man Mark Stone got a 2nd round pick and a AHL prospect and a camp dump.

To think Markstrom has some crazy value on the market is nuts. The last goalie traded for a top 10 pick was Cory Schneider and he was 27 years old coming off a impressive 3 year stretch.

[Robbob]

Originally Posted by Paulie Walnuts

Can you provide examples of 35 year old goalies fetching a top 10 draft pick, along with a 23 year old C.

I think you have to forget about Holtz and Mercer if you are talking about the 10OA. Only reason they factor in is if NJ is suddenly willing to part with Mercer because the player @10 is seen as a replacement. Granted that 10th pick probably is 2 years out.

In terms of value of an aging goaltender, look at the value Ryan Miller or Darcy Kemper returned. Both were UFAs at the time. I think that gives you a ballpark of the value of Markstrom. The question is, are those theoretical picks and pieces returned enough draft capital to move up. If not, what if you throw in the value of retention. Markstrom straight up might not be worth the 10OA, but once you add retention, I think it starts getting there.

[traptor]

Originally Posted by Robbob

I think you have to forget about Holtz and Mercer if you are talking about the 10OA. Only reason they factor in is if NJ is suddenly willing to part with Mercer because the player @10 is seen as a replacement. Granted that 10th pick probably is 2 years out.

In terms of value of an aging goaltender, look at the value Ryan Miller or Darcy Kemper returned. Both were UFAs at the time. I think that gives you a ballpark of the value of Markstrom. The question is, are those theoretical picks and pieces returned enough draft capital to move up. If not, what if you throw in the value of retention. Markstrom straight up might not be worth the 10OA, but once you add retention, I think it starts getting there.

Youre right with the comparables.
One more is MAF.

I would put Markstroms value without retention as a late 1st(25-32nd oa)

Retention would add betweeen a 2nd rounder up to another late 1st.

So retained Markstrom is worth like 17th-24th oa in my opinion, based on the amount retained.
To get to 10th you would need to add.

I think van 1st + 50% retained Marsktrom is fair value.

[Rutuu]

Originally Posted by Bingo

Pretty easy if I cut and paste all the comments above saying everything is Edward's fault!

It is shocking how much of a free pass Edwards gets in all of this. I know CNRL is debatably the most successful oil company in the sector, but resources and entertainment are two different business models.

The Flames have been outperformed by their provincial rivals on numerous fronts when it comes to the business of the sport. It's not all about "wins" or star players. A lot of what they can control has performed poorly.

The person at the top matters to the rest of the organization. He should be feeling the heat.

We laugh at the Oiler's fanboy media, but the fact that our media use the term "Mr. Edwards" and give the guy a free pass is worse than having McDavid PJs with matching sheets.

[CalgarySames]

I'm convinced that moving Markstrom is the right choice, and if management aren't willing to settle for less that 10OA in the upcoming draft; I'm inclined to agree that it might be a better strategy to withhold him and move him closer to the deadline. There are risks involved in that of course, his play may not command a better price come deadline, and he may steal enough games to keep the Flames from getting a better draft pick next year. But he could be a good presence while developing Wolf further.

I'd be interested in what the market is like for Coleman after the season he put up and the experience he brings. (It also wouldn't hurt my feelings much if they cleared up another winger position for a younger player).

[YyjFlames]

Originally Posted by Paulie Walnuts

I think he hit a homerun with the Lindholm trade, Vancouver overpaid.

We got market value for the rest, I think we got excited for the first time having valuable assets on the market.

I man Mark Stone got a 2nd round pick and a AHL prospect and a camp dump.

To think Markstrom has some crazy value on the market is nuts. The last goalie traded for a top 10 pick was Cory Schneider and he was 27 years old coming off an impressive 3 year stretch.

I’m tempering my expectations, and you’re probably right, but Calgary doesn’t need to trade Markstrom and if New Jersey wants him more than any other available goalie, they may have to overpay.

Calgary basically drew that line at the trade deadline.

It’s a pretty interesting circumstance that could see a larger than typical return. It could just as easily go the other way if Calgary feels they can’t bring Markstrom back, and they just take whatever they can get, but the discussions are interesting. Hearing that New Jersey is willing to move their pick makes it even more intriguing.

[Robbob]

Originally Posted by traptor

Youre right with the comparables.
One more is MAF.

I would put Markstroms value without retention as a late 1st(25-32nd oa)

Retention would add betweeen a 2nd rounder up to another late 1st.

So retained Markstrom is worth like 17th-24th oa in my opinion, based on the amount retained.
To get to 10th you would need to add.

I think van 1st + 50% retained Marsktrom is fair value.

I do agree that Van 1st plus 50% retention gets you there, and is probably a bit of an overpay.

I think your value for Markstrom is a little light considering he is under contract for a couple years. Here is the Miller trade:

February 28, 2014: Ryan Miller Traded by the Buffalo Sabres with Steve Ott

to the St. Louis Blues for 1st round draft pick in 2015 (later traded to Winnipeg,# Winnipeg selected Jack Roslovic), 3rd round draft pick in 2016 (later traded to Florida, Florida selected Linus Nassen), William Carrier, Jaroslav Halák and Chris Stewart.

Carrier was a 2nd round pick in 2013.

here is the Kuemper trade:

Traded by the Arizona Coyotes to the Colorado Avalanche for 1st round draft pick in 2022 , 3rd round draft pick in 2024 (conditional) and Conor Timmins. The conditional was if they won the cup. I would say the basis of the trade is 1st rounder plus the late pick.

Markstrom I think has more value than Kuemper.

[Macho0978]

Originally Posted by Robbob

I do agree that Van 1st plus 50% retention gets you there, and is probably a bit of an overpay.

I think your value for Markstrom is a little light considering he is under contract for a couple years. Here is the Miller trade:

February 28, 2014: Ryan Miller Traded by the Buffalo Sabres with Steve Ott

to the St. Louis Blues for 1st round draft pick in 2015 (later traded to Winnipeg,# Winnipeg selected Jack Roslovic), 3rd round draft pick in 2016 (later traded to Florida, Florida selected Linus Nassen), William Carrier, Jaroslav Halák and Chris Stewart.

Carrier was a 2nd round pick in 2013.

here is the Kuemper trade:

Traded by the Arizona Coyotes to the Colorado Avalanche for 1st round draft pick in 2022 , 3rd round draft pick in 2024 (conditional) and Conor Timmins. The conditional was if they won the cup. I would say the basis of the trade is 1st rounder plus the late pick.

Markstrom I think has more value than Kuemper.

At that time Kuemper was 31 and was putting up .907, .925, .929 save percent in the previous 3 seasons. I would say markstrom is close to his value but not more valuable. Kuemper only had 1 year on his deal @ $4.5 mil. I think if Markstrom had less term at his age he would actually get more in a deal.

Vans 1st and 50% retained probably gets yu 10 though, I agree with that. But IMO that would be easily worth it for the Flames.

[howard_the_duck]

Originally Posted by Macho0978

At that time Kuemper was 31 and was putting up .907, .925, .929 save percent in the previous 3 seasons. I would say markstrom is close to his value but not more valuable. Kuemper only had 1 year on his deal @ $4.5 mil. I think if Markstrom had less term at his age he would actually get more in a deal.

Vans 1st and 50% retained probably gets yu 10 though, I agree with that. But IMO that would be easily worth it for the Flames.

In defense, I think save percentages were higher then for goalies across the league, and Markstrom is a Vezina finalist and probably finishes 5th or 6th in votes this year.

Kuemper probably wasn't even a consensus top-10 goalie then. I'd argue Markstrom is close to a consensus top 6 or 7 guy now.

[Robbob]

Originally Posted by Macho0978

At that time Kuemper was 31 and was putting up .907, .925, .929 save percent in the previous 3 seasons. I would say markstrom is close to his value but not more valuable. Kuemper only had 1 year on his deal @ $4.5 mil. I think if Markstrom had less term at his age he would actually get more in a deal.

Vans 1st and 50% retained probably gets yu 10 though, I agree with that. But IMO that would be easily worth it for the Flames.

Interesting. I was more of the opinion that having 2 years is added value because it is cost certainty, especially if you can get him 50% retained. 3M for a starting goalie with the cap expected to go up close to 10M over the next two years. Gives them some flexibility to sign Mercer and some other upcoming RFAs. Even if they go into next season with Allen and Markstrom as their duo, they would only be paying them a combined 4.9M.

[TOfan]

Originally Posted by Macho0978

At that time Kuemper was 31 and was putting up .907, .925, .929 save percent in the previous 3 seasons. I would say markstrom is close to his value but not more valuable. Kuemper only had 1 year on his deal @ $4.5 mil. I think if Markstrom had less term at his age he would actually get more in a deal.

Vans 1st and 50% retained probably gets yu 10 though, I agree with that. But IMO that would be easily worth it for the Flames.

Depending on the team, Markstrom with two years might be more appealing than one, especially with retention. Ulmark only has one year left and hasn’t played more than 60 games in a season. He’s proved he can be excellent in a tandem but ? as far as being full time 1G.

2 years of Markstrom could be very appealing to NJ, Toronto, or LA. Specifically Toronto if they think Woll is the guy long term.

[Macho0978]

Originally Posted by Robbob

Interesting. I was more of the opinion that having 2 years is added value because it is cost certainty, especially if you can get him 50% retained. 3M for a starting goalie with the cap expected to go up close to 10M over the next two years. Gives them some flexibility to sign Mercer and some other upcoming RFAs. Even if they go into next season with Allen and Markstrom as their duo, they would only be paying them a combined 4.9M.

I was more thinking less term is more valuable with no retention as Kuemper was traded no retention.

There is no guarantee that the Flames will retain 50% for 2 years. I could see it being 10-25%. I also think they don't like to have 1 on their salary retention slots tied up for 2 years either.

If we sell at the deadline some UFAs, maybe we get better returns on Kuz, Sharky, Mangiapane with salary retained. That spot blocked has to be factored in the Markstrom return as it is likely we could use 3 spots at the deadline this year when we are sellers.

[traptor]

Markstrom (retained) + mangiapane (retained) + 28th oa for Bahl + 10th oa.

Who says no?

[Macho0978]

Originally Posted by TOfan

Depending on the team, Markstrom with two years might be more appealing than one, especially with retention. Ulmark only has one year left and hasn’t played more than 60 games in a season. He’s proved he can be excellent in a tandem but ? as far as being full time 1G.

2 years of Markstrom could be very appealing to NJ, Toronto, or LA. Specifically Toronto if they think Woll is the guy long term.

I agree, my comment was around no salary retained. With salary retained, the price goes up as the Flames might want to use that spot this deadline with other players. Ulmark might come a lot cheaper than 10th OV, is only 30 so if the fit is good is a better option to resign and makes $1 mil less right now.

1 year left also is more likely to get a 3rd team to broker the deal. 2 years just doesn't seem to happen as much