Israel declares war on Hamas

[Skootenbeeten]

Originally Posted by Bagor

More bring your kid to commit acts of genocide day.
Gotta teach that hate whilst they're young.

https://twitter.com/user/status/1797018272782557294

I wanna play too!


https://www.reddit.com/r/2ndYomKippu...ef_source=link

[Skootenbeeten]

Originally Posted by _Q_

Hey skeeterboot, this is the reason why we talk to Nage the way we do.

You need help man. You're dangerous to society.

Hey Queef I already know why you talk the way you do, it stems from ignorance and a lack of education.



Sure thing, me and the POTUS both right? You and Putin on the other side have matching opinions. Who's the threat?

[Nage Waza]

Originally Posted by _Q_

Hey Nage, since you keep asking for it. Here we go.
But Gaza isn't a nation. It is occupied territory. Hamas isn't the government because Gaza isn't an independent nation. Israel is way beyond the point of attempting to defend themselves. This point proves nothing.

Gaza had elections and declared war on another nation. If your argument is the Gazans are Israeli, that is a whole other argument that is not supported by anything. Gaza was part of Egypt previously and they don't seem to want it, at all, and have closed their border to Palestinians. Occupied or not, Gaza is ruled by Hamas, and that is all supported by the Oslo Accords.

Israel is not beyond the point of defending themselves, they have suffered from 20 years of attacks and they don't plan on being attacked any longer. Unfortunate reality for Palestinians is that they fully support Hamas who promise to continue attacking Israel.

Originally Posted by _Q_

I don't think you fully understand the Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of the Crime of Genocide. Here it is for reference.
https://www.un.org/en/genocideprevention/genocide.shtml

There is nothing any rational person could pinpoint that supports any genocide taking place. Funny you ignore the real genocides taking place and focus your time on Gaza. Gaza is in a war and Israel is destroying the military capabilities of Hamas, and that includes buildings. In Ukraine, as Russia advances, Ukraine is destroying Ukrainian buildings that contain Russian military. Ukraine also evacuated civilians, which Hamas prevented. This is not genocide and I am sorry Tik Tok has let you down.

Originally Posted by _Q_

Read that bolded part again and then read what you said. Even if we are to agree that Palestinians in Gaza are essentially just the same as the Arabs living in Israel (yes), Lebanese and Syrians (debatable) or Jordanians and Egyptians (laughable), that doesn't mean that Israel isn't committing genocide. Again, any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group.

The area called Palestine was once Transjordan which is now basically Israel and Jordan. The Muslims in the region live in a number of countries now. If you want Apartheid, look at those countries and the rights Palestinians have. Compare that to Israel, and you will find your injustice.

At some point you called me racist for stating what is fact, the people in the region had numerous borders thrown at them after the end of the Ottoman empire and they live in assorted countries. I am not sure what is laughable about that, but I could have been more clear - Palestinians live in multiple countries, including Israel, Jordan, Syria, Lebanon, etc.

Originally Posted by _Q_

Do the Palestinians constitute a national, ethnical, racial or religious group? If you don't believe so, do they constitute part of a national, ethnical, racial or religious group?

I am not quite sure what that answer is. Is Calgary an ethnic group? Are Gazans different from Israeli Muslims or Jordanians? Those in the region prior to Israel were all called Palestinian, including Jews and Muslims.

Originally Posted by _Q_

See, now you're just admitting to the crime. And no, just because you dislike the way Hamas operates, it doesn't make genocide OK. Genocide is never OK.

No, I never stated anything of the sort. Israel is involved in a military campaign that they believe is a threat to their existence and believe this is the way it must be fought, as most other countries would also have fought, including the biggest critics right now. Israel without a doubt is following a plan that we might want to criticize, but we certainly don't know what they know. You don't get to pick that plan, nor did Hamas, although Hamas did make the decision to attack. Not only did they choose to attack, they did it when Israel opened its border for Palestinians to work in Israel as part of a path towards peace. That won't be happening again, possibly ever, unless there is massive deradicalization. Palestinians needs to choose which path they want to take, the Hamas route or the Israeli peace route.

Is Russia committing genocide? What about Ukraine? Or China, Iran, Syria? Yemen? Is everything now genocide? The only people openly bragging about wanting genocide are those that are fighting Israel (Hamas) and the protestors (useful idiots) who are projecting that it is Israel wanting genocide.

Originally Posted by _Q_

No again, that's not how genocide works. All 5 of those items don't need to be true for a genocide to be occurring. Reread please. Furthermore, I'm sure that since the beginning of this slaughter, the population hasn't increased. Your argument is illogical.
Stop with these accusations. This is silly.

None of the items were true in this case and not even close. Launch rockets from a building? Building is destroyed. Build tunnels under a building, tunnel is destroyed. It is pretty much the gameplan and most of it is documented and recorded.

How about you defend those points you are trying to make about why it is a genocide? Which act did Israel commit to that makes you lean in that direction besides simply being Israel?

The Palestinian population has rapidly increased over the last 20 years and longer, this is not debatable. They have also spent 20 years radicalizing their population so much that Hamas is to this day still well supported by the population, or at least it looks that way because any compromise towards Israel is met with execution. How about Palestinian leader that wants peace? Abbas is considered moderate yet he is a holocaust denier and pays people to murder Jews. Where are the leaders the people need?

[_Q_]

Originally Posted by Skootenbeeten

Hey Queef I already know why you talk the way you do, it stems from ignorance and a lack of education.



Sure thing, me and the POTUS both right? You and Putin on the other side have matching opinions. Who's the threat?

Amazing.

[Wormius]

Just when I thought this thread couldn’t get any more ridiculous.

[Bagor]

Originally Posted by Skootenbeeten

I wanna play too!

I sure you do. I'm sure you'd love nothing more.

[_Q_]

Originally Posted by Nage Waza

Gaza had elections and declared war on another nation. If your argument is the Gazans are Israeli, that is a whole other argument that is not supported by anything. Gaza was part of Egypt previously and they don't seem to want it, at all, and have closed their border to Palestinians. Occupied or not, Gaza is ruled by Hamas, and that is all supported by the Oslo Accords.

Israel is not beyond the point of defending themselves, they have suffered from 20 years of attacks and they don't plan on being attacked any longer. Unfortunate reality for Palestinians is that they fully support Hamas who promise to continue attacking Israel.



There is nothing any rational person could pinpoint that supports any genocide taking place. Funny you ignore the real genocides taking place and focus your time on Gaza. Gaza is in a war and Israel is destroying the military capabilities of Hamas, and that includes buildings. In Ukraine, as Russia advances, Ukraine is destroying Ukrainian buildings that contain Russian military. Ukraine also evacuated civilians, which Hamas prevented. This is not genocide and I am sorry Tik Tok has let you down.



The area called Palestine was once Transjordan which is now basically Israel and Jordan. The Muslims in the region live in a number of countries now. If you want Apartheid, look at those countries and the rights Palestinians have. Compare that to Israel, and you will find your injustice.

At some point you called me racist for stating what is fact, the people in the region had numerous borders thrown at them after the end of the Ottoman empire and they live in assorted countries. I am not sure what is laughable about that, but I could have been more clear - Palestinians live in multiple countries, including Israel, Jordan, Syria, Lebanon, etc.



I am not quite sure what that answer is. Is Calgary an ethnic group? Are Gazans different from Israeli Muslims or Jordanians? Those in the region prior to Israel were all called Palestinian, including Jews and Muslims.



No, I never stated anything of the sort. Israel is involved in a military campaign that they believe is a threat to their existence and believe this is the way it must be fought, as most other countries would also have fought, including the biggest critics right now. Israel without a doubt is following a plan that we might want to criticize, but we certainly don't know what they know. You don't get to pick that plan, nor did Hamas, although Hamas did make the decision to attack. Not only did they choose to attack, they did it when Israel opened its border for Palestinians to work in Israel as part of a path towards peace. That won't be happening again, possibly ever, unless there is massive deradicalization. Palestinians needs to choose which path they want to take, the Hamas route or the Israeli peace route.

Is Russia committing genocide? What about Ukraine? Or China, Iran, Syria? Yemen? Is everything now genocide? The only people openly bragging about wanting genocide are those that are fighting Israel (Hamas) and the protestors (useful idiots) who are projecting that it is Israel wanting genocide.



None of the items were true in this case and not even close. Launch rockets from a building? Building is destroyed. Build tunnels under a building, tunnel is destroyed. It is pretty much the gameplan and most of it is documented and recorded.

How about you defend those points you are trying to make about why it is a genocide? Which act did Israel commit to that makes you lean in that direction besides simply being Israel?

The Palestinian population has rapidly increased over the last 20 years and longer, this is not debatable. They have also spent 20 years radicalizing their population so much that Hamas is to this day still well supported by the population, or at least it looks that way because any compromise towards Israel is met with execution. How about Palestinian leader that wants peace? Abbas is considered moderate yet he is a holocaust denier and pays people to murder Jews. Where are the leaders the people need?

Jesus ####ing christ. I tried to have an honest debate with you.

You're too far gone man. These are delusions of a mad man. Transjordan was what is currently known as Palestine? Transjodan was named Transjordan because it was on the "other" side of the Jordan River.

[Fuzz]

Nage Waza: if the Palestinians would just trust Israel, they totally could have done something different.


If you were a Palestinian living in Gaza or the West Bank, would YOU trust Israel? Because if so, I've got some great deals I'd like to propose to you.

[Fuzz]

Originally Posted by Skootenbeeten

I wanna play too!


https://www.reddit.com/r/2ndYomKippu...ef_source=link

It seems you have discovered Israel's latest creation, and are pretty joyous about it. Amazing you still haven't figured this out.

[Skootenbeeten]

Originally Posted by Fuzz

It seems you have discovered Israel's latest creation, and are pretty joyous about it. Amazing you still haven't figured this out.

Yup everything is Israel's fault, I bet they kicked your dog the other day too and helped Edmonton win last night. Same guy who thinks Israel doesn't want the hostages released while they propose ceasefires. Have you ever added anything of value to any conversation at any time in your life?

[Skootenbeeten]

Originally Posted by _Q_

Jesus ####ing christ. I tried to have an honest debate with you.

You're too far gone man. These are delusions of a mad man. Transjordan was what is currently known as Palestine? Transjodan was named Transjordan because it was on the "other" side of the Jordan River.

Nage writes a page explaining his position and you boil it down to one meaningless mistake and then write off the rest calling him crazy while you side with people who literally support Hamas and get angry at people who call for it's destruction. I don't know why anyone would bother responding with anything but the same insults you throw out.

[PepsiFree]

Originally Posted by Nage Waza

Gaza had elections and declared war on another nation. If your argument is the Gazans are Israeli, that is a whole other argument that is not supported by anything. Gaza was part of Egypt previously and they don't seem to want it, at all, and have closed their border to Palestinians. Occupied or not, Gaza is ruled by Hamas, and that is all supported by the Oslo Accords.

Gaza last has an election 20 years ago, where despite obstruction from the Israeli government and despite Fatah winning the majority of the seats, Hamas claimed victory and Fatah conceded. This was the same election where the vast majority of Palestinians wanted Hamas to change their stance on Israel.

Gaza was not part of Egypt, unless you’re referring to ancient history. Gaza is also being administered by the PLO according to the Oslo Accords, not Hamas.

None of what you just said is logically coherent, you’re picking and choosing pieces of history to suit your argument. You should educate yourself on the history of the area that you hate.

Originally Posted by Nage Waza

Israel is not beyond the point of defending themselves, they have suffered from 20 years of attacks and they don't plan on being attacked any longer. Unfortunate reality for Palestinians is that they fully support Hamas who promise to continue attacking Israel.

No, they are. The death toll and destruction is beyond a defence. You can justify it as a military offensive to gain control of a territory if you’d like, but calling it a “defence” is as absurd as calling Hamas’ terrorist attack a defence.

As far as “fully supporting” Hamas, you might want to look to Israel’s leader, who has fully supported and enabled Hamas as a means to disrupting the pursuit of a two state solution and securing his own power. Unfortunate reality for Israelis is that they’re been led by a Hamas supporter.

Originally Posted by Nage Waza

There is nothing any rational person could pinpoint that supports any genocide taking place. Funny you ignore the real genocides taking place and focus your time on Gaza. Gaza is in a war and Israel is destroying the military capabilities of Hamas, and that includes buildings. In Ukraine, as Russia advances, Ukraine is destroying Ukrainian buildings that contain Russian military. Ukraine also evacuated civilians, which Hamas prevented. This is not genocide and I am sorry Tik Tok has let you down.

There have been many scholars, all of which are significantly more rational than you could possibly claim to be, that have made the argument for genocide. Just waving them off as “irrational” is avoiding debate, and frantically trying to change the topic is the same.

Funny you also ignore other genocides taking place, I guess. And funny you don’t spend hours upon hours defending the deaths of thousands of women and children. Must be something about these ones you like to see (that’s how this works right)?

Forget TikTok, time to get off Truth Social.

Originally Posted by Nage Waza

The area called Palestine was once Transjordan which is now basically Israel and Jordan. The Muslims in the region live in a number of countries now. If you want Apartheid, look at those countries and the rights Palestinians have. Compare that to Israel, and you will find your injustice.

lol. Read a book. This isn’t close.

Originally Posted by Nage Waza

At some point you called me racist for stating what is fact, the people in the region had numerous borders thrown at them after the end of the Ottoman empire and they live in assorted countries. I am not sure what is laughable about that, but I could have been more clear - Palestinians live in multiple countries, including Israel, Jordan, Syria, Lebanon, etc.

Like all of those areas but Israel, the borders were based on logical areas of independence. Israel is the only country that was non-existent in any form in the decades prior to the British splitting everything up, and the only reason Israel existed is because of Zionist pressure and mass amounts of immigration to the area. Zionists basically took a section of Palestinian they declared was theirs because of the bible.

Originally Posted by Nage Waza

No, I never stated anything of the sort. Israel is involved in a military campaign that they believe is a threat to their existence and believe this is the way it must be fought, as most other countries would also have fought, including the biggest critics right now. Israel without a doubt is following a plan that we might want to criticize, but we certainly don't know what they know. You don't get to pick that plan, nor did Hamas, although Hamas did make the decision to attack. Not only did they choose to attack, they did it when Israel opened its border for Palestinians to work in Israel as part of a path towards peace. That won't be happening again, possibly ever, unless there is massive deradicalization. Palestinians needs to choose which path they want to take, the Hamas route or the Israeli peace route.

Palestinians don’t have a choice, as they are not being given one. Any suggestion otherwise is absurd.

Originally Posted by Nage Waza

Is Russia committing genocide? What about Ukraine? Or China, Iran, Syria? Yemen? Is everything now genocide? The only people openly bragging about wanting genocide are those that are fighting Israel (Hamas) and the protestors (useful idiots) who are projecting that it is Israel wanting genocide.

Make the case for or against each one. We’re talking about Gaza. Figure it out.

Originally Posted by Nage Waza

None of the items were true in this case and not even close. Launch rockets from a building? Building is destroyed. Build tunnels under a building, tunnel is destroyed. It is pretty much the gameplan and most of it is documented and recorded.

That’s the justification, sure. Which is not always the case.

Originally Posted by Nage Waza

How about you defend those points you are trying to make about why it is a genocide? Which act did Israel commit to that makes you lean in that direction besides simply being Israel?

Destruction of hospitals, universities and schools, media, government buildings, etc.

Mass amounts of civilian casualties, especially women and children.

Blockade which has caused severe living conditions and makes future progress impossible.

Settlers and land grabs.

Anti-Palestinian sentiments by elected officials, including Ben Gvir.

You’re free to point to another country that is doing all of those things that isn’t being accused of genocide by any number of people.

Originally Posted by Nage Waza

The Palestinian population has rapidly increased over the last 20 years and longer, this is not debatable. They have also spent 20 years radicalizing their population so much that Hamas is to this day still well supported by the population, or at least it looks that way because any compromise towards Israel is met with execution. How about Palestinian leader that wants peace? Abbas is considered moderate yet he is a holocaust denier and pays people to murder Jews. Where are the leaders the people need?

Netanyahu has the Palestinian population set up politically exactly as he wants. If you want a better future for Palestinians and Israelis, why don’t you elect someone who doesn’t support Hamas and isn’t being influenced by far right lunatics who are dead set on a never-ending war that breeds generation after generation of Hamas until the whole area is an empty desert?

[PepsiFree]

Originally Posted by Skootenbeeten

Yup everything is Israel's fault, I bet they kicked your dog the other day too and helped Edmonton win last night. Same guy who thinks Israel doesn't want the hostages released while they propose ceasefires. Have you ever added anything of value to any conversation at any time in your life?

He has. Try it out some time. We’re all waiting.

[Fuzz]

Originally Posted by Skootenbeeten

Yup everything is Israel's fault, I bet they kicked your dog the other day too and helped Edmonton win last night. Same guy who thinks Israel doesn't want the hostages released while they propose ceasefires. Have you ever added anything of value to any conversation at any time in your life?

Do I really have to spell it out for you? Fine, just this once. Treating people like ####, taking their land, blockading their territory, and every decade or so bombing their homes into the stone age leads to and endless cycle of creating anger and terrorists. Is it any wonder this is happening right now? Is it any wonder they are creating the next round of pissed of people to attack them? But ya, sure. Keep up doing the same things over and over, and be sure to bitch to the world when the same ####ing things happen again and again, and then roll over in victimhood to justify killing more innocents, settling on their land(West Bank, just to avoid where your brain is already going), and perpetuating the cycle again and again.


And I'm the dumb one?

[Zary's-Mustache]

Have to laugh at Nage's point that the gaza population has increased over the last 20 years rapidly so can't be a genocide.

This would be like someone In 1965 saying the holocaust wasn't a genocide because the Jewish population has increased rapidly in last 20 years.

It's that looney tunes of an argument.

[blankall]

Originally Posted by Zary's-Mustache

Have to laugh at Nage's point that the gaza population has increased over the last 20 years rapidly so can't be a genocide.

This would be like someone In 1965 saying the holocaust wasn't a genocide because the Jewish population has increased rapidly in last 20 years.

It's that looney tunes of an argument.

The point is more that if there was a sustained effort at genocide since Israel's inception, you would not expect Gaza (and the Arab population actually within Israel) to have one of the fastest growing population's in the world. If that is genocide, Israel is not very good at it.

Did the Jewish population grow between 1939 and 1945? No one is stating there was a Jewish genocide over the last 20 years.

[blankall]

Originally Posted by Fuzz

Do I really have to spell it out for you? Fine, just this once. Treating people like ####, taking their land, blockading their territory, and every decade or so bombing their homes into the stone age leads to and endless cycle of creating anger and terrorists. Is it any wonder this is happening right now? Is it any wonder they are creating the next round of pissed of people to attack them? But ya, sure. Keep up doing the same things over and over, and be sure to bitch to the world when the same ####ing things happen again and again, and then roll over in victimhood to justify killing more innocents, settling on their land(West Bank, just to avoid where your brain is already going), and perpetuating the cycle again and again.


And I'm the dumb one?

If only the Palestinians had been offered a state....oh no wait.

[Bagor]

Originally Posted by blankall

The point is more that if there was a sustained effort at genocide since Israel's inception, you would not expect Gaza (and the Arab population actually within Israel) to have one of the fastest growing population's in the world. If that is genocide, Israel is not very good at it.

No. That is is not the point. The point is the genocide case against them is from their actions of genocide from 2023 onwards.

But you already knew that. Any old irrelevant info to try and deny the genocide.

[Bownesian]

Civilian deaths as a percentage of total deaths in this war are not out of line with other conflicts:

WWII - 60-70% civilians
Korea - 75% civilians
Vietnam - 67% civilians
Chechnya - 87% civilians
NATO in Yugoslavia - 50% civilians
NATO in Afghanistan - 28% civilians
IRAQ II - 33% civilians
Battle of Mosul vs ISIS (probably the most similar) - ~50% civilians

For the Hamas attack on Oct 7 - 67% civilians (plus unknown hostage deaths)

For the Israeli counterattack in Gaza:
Hamas' estimate - 67%-100% civilians
Israel's estimate - 50% civilians
US estimate - 60% civilians

Most of the non-Gaza conflicts had units fighting away from civilian centers, which is not the case here.

Because Hamas embeds themselves amongst civilians (a war crime) and launches attacks from those embedded positions (another war crime), at least some part of the civilian death toll is a result of those war crimes. Some of these Hamas-attributable Palestinian civilian deaths are direct (such as a rocket falling short on your own side) and some are indirect (fighting from an apartment block, for instance, which invites inevitable counterattack).

I don't see it as a genocide, just an inevitable result of urban warfare.

[PepsiFree]

Originally Posted by Bownesian

Civilian deaths as a percentage of total deaths in this war are not out of line with other conflicts:

WWII - 60-70% civilians
Korea - 75% civilians
Vietnam - 67% civilians
Chechnya - 87% civilians
NATO in Yugoslavia - 50% civilians
NATO in Afghanistan - 28% civilians
IRAQ II - 33% civilians
Battle of Mosul vs ISIS (probably the most similar) - ~50% civilians

For the Hamas attack on Oct 7 - 67% civilians (plus unknown hostage deaths)

For the Israeli counterattack in Gaza:
Hamas' estimate - 67%-100% civilians
Israel's estimate - 50% civilians
US estimate - 60% civilians

Most of the non-Gaza conflicts had units fighting away from civilian centers, which is not the case here.

Because Hamas embeds themselves amongst civilians (a war crime) and launches attacks from those embedded positions (another war crime), at least some part of the civilian death toll is a result of those war crimes. Some of these Hamas-attributable Palestinian civilian deaths are direct (such as a rocket falling short on your own side) and some are indirect (fighting from an apartment block, for instance, which invites inevitable counterattack).

I don't see it as a genocide, just an inevitable result of urban warfare.

Up for debate, but you’ll find good arguments suggesting genocide was pursued in Chechnya and Vietnam, just to name a couple. I actually don’t think anyone trying to defend Israel’s actions in any way should be mentioning the US’s actions in Vietnam as a counterpoint.

The whole list is rife with very significant examples of crimes against humanity, at very least.

I think calling this inevitable or placing the absolving Israel of any blame or criticism is just turning a blind eye. Even if you disagree with the term “genocide” which is hard to define and hard to get international agreement on in most conflicts where genocidal intent is present, going the opposite direction and shrugging it off would be an even less accepted position.