Todd Button....

[Steve Bozek]

Originally Posted by Jiri Hrdina

The idea of "back yard" doesn't really matter. Players are so heavily scouted there's very little advantage in being close to a player.
Tampa passed on Point twice, picking two guys that played 0 NHL games combined.

I can see why Point wasn’t a first rounder at the time, but I still think the Flames scouting on him has to be faulted. See post #76 in this thread.

[Robbob]

Originally Posted by AustinL_NHL

I mentioned it a couple years ago when it happened, but FWIW, Brayden Point's father took my brother-in-law and I (along with a bunch of his other employees) to a Stampeders game a couple years ago and told me the Hurricanes & Flames were the only 2 teams to not even interview Point in his draft year.

Like guys wtf lol

Not to defend the Flames, but there are instances where a team will do that as to not show interest in the player. I believe they did the same with Gaudreau. They went as far as being careful which personnel they talked to because someone in the Bruins organization owned the the team Gaudreau played on. At the end of the day the only way we will probably ever find out is if we can get Tod Button's notes.

[Calgary4LIfe]

Originally Posted by Paulie Walnuts

Hunter Smith was a horrendous pick. He was a 1 point player, and overage season had 40 which isn't good by any metrics. He was selected because of size.

When you make a major blunder like that you should be placed on a PIP in any workplace.

Size doesn't just mean you are good, or bring anything to the table.

Disagree with this take. I am curious why you are silent on Brandon Hickey.



Hunter Smith (54th pick in 2014) - appeared in every camp for the Flames including preseason (and even fought Nurse), went to the AHL and played hard, and even stood up for other Flames' prospects. Eventually fizzled out and left.


Brandon Hickey (64th pick in 2014) - went the college route, appeared in squat for the Flames. Treliving announced that he is signing Hickey soon, but then crickets until he got traded. He told Treliving that he would not sign here in Calgary, and he still didn't get a sniff of the NHL. Why aren't you so outraged about Hickey who was selected just 10 spots later?



I swear a there are a number of people here with an irrational dislike of large players. As soon as one is taken, and busts, it never ends with the: "This organization needs to stop taking meatheads!", "Great, another useless plug!", "Button sucks!".


When a smaller player busts, the takes become: "This organization sucks for never giving small players a chance!", "Watch this kid light it up elsewhere - I hope he scores on the Flames every game!"


FYI - Why was Hunter Smith drafted by the Flames? You assert it was only because he was big, but that would be a wrong take on your part.



Smith was scouted in his draft year by the Flames (he was playing through an injury apparently, and sometimes these big guys have a recent growth spurt and just have to allow their bodies to catch up). Flames didn't love him enough in his draft year to draft him, but they liked him enough and saw enough in him while scouting to invite him to camp. He turned it down because he was injured. The following Draft+1 season, his development took off. 16 goals, 40 points and 100PIMS. He played with skilled guys and looked good. He played on the PK too apparently. Flames liked enough of what they saw to use a pick on him. If the only reason they picked him was because he was big, then they would have used one of their 7th round picks on him from the previous draft (they had 2 - Rusan Rafikov and John Gilmour). They liked Smith because of his size + hands + IQ.

@7:28 in: https://hockeyprospect.com/calgary-f...th-tod-button/


He busted. When that happens, it was a terrible pick, no question. However, you insinuate that there wasn't anything there. Flames had a long book on him, and they were either wrong, or the player failed to develop properly for whatever reason (you nor I know that by the way). Most picks don't make it.



If you are going to critique the Flames for making a horrible pick, then at least dig-in a bit to why they chose to select him, and try to figure out where it went wrong, rather than just blaming size.

[Jiri Hrdina]

Originally Posted by Paulie Walnuts

Hunter Smith was a horrendous pick. He was a 1 point player, and overage season had 40 which isn't good by any metrics. He was selected because of size.

When you make a major blunder like that you should be placed on a PIP in any workplace.

Size doesn't just mean you are good, or bring anything to the table.

Were you trying to reply to any of my points or just ranting again about a player drafted a very long time ago?

[TheChief]

I'm late to the party here and I'm sure someone has already reiterated but the troubling part is that I'm not sure if our scouts do enough background on our picks. Dube/Porier/Ronni/Howse/Stoll/Fox/Erixon/Valimaki/Kylington unfortunately all struggled with personal and or character issues which in some cases completely hindered them becoming a regular.



I guess on the flip side im sure we are not the only organization prone to this but I felt we had more then normal over the years.

[Jiri Hrdina]

Originally Posted by TheChief

I'm late to the party here and I'm sure someone has already reiterated but the troubling part is that I'm not sure if our scouts do enough background on our picks. Dube/Porier/Ronni/Howse/Stoll/Fox/Erixon/Valimaki/Kylington unfortunately all struggled with personal and or character issues which in some cases completely hindered them becoming a regular.



I guess on the flip side im sure we are not the only organization prone to this but I felt we had more then normal over the years.

This is a terrible take for a lot of reasons.

First - it lacks a complete understanding that mental illness issues can impact anyone, and they are very hard to predict. Suggesting the Flames could have somehow identified it is naive.

Second - let's isolate some of the specific names:
- You seem to be categorizing Fox, Erixon and Stoll all as having character issues, instead of acknowledging they leveraged their situations to get what they wanted. Two of them went on to damn good careers.
- Howse had amazing hands but was an awful skater, with a poor all around game. Exactly the type of player you get in the middle rounds.
- I'm not aware of any "character issues" that Valimaki has or had unless you are somehow counting a horrible knee injury as a character issue.

Third - I hate how some seem to want to assign blame for what happened with Dube and Ronni. The accountability rests with those people for their actions.

[BigThief]

Imagine blaming the scouts because seven years after being drafted at 18 someone had a mental health issue.

[Jiri Hrdina]

Originally Posted by BigThief

Imagine blaming the scouts because seven years after being drafted at 18 someone had a mental health issue.

It's also just such an odd list
- 3 guys who didn't want to sign with the Flames and didn't
- 2 guys accused of sexual assault
- 1 guy (Howse) who made a personal choice no longer to pursue a pro career
- 2 guys who have suffered from some significant mental wellness challenges (Poirier and Kylington)
- And then a random addition Juuso Valiamaki who is over on the sidelines wondering what the heck he did to show up on this strange list
- Plus Dan Ryder is also sitting there shouting "WTF, why am i NOT on this list"!?!?!

[PepsiFree]

My favourite part was the “Oh hey guys here I am! Anyways I’m sure someone has obviously already said this but here goes!” and proceeds to lay a turd that I’m not even sure anyone had thought, let alone said.

[Roof-Daddy]

I think it's funny that the guy thought someone else had probably already brought his weird idea up


EDIT: ^^^yeah, what pepsi said

[TheChief]

My list was calculated -albeit off the top of my head, or from the bowels of my ass as some of you argue .


What isn't debatable is there is a reason this team has been mired in mediocrity for the better part of 3 decades, and its not just the players mentioned but the countless other busts. Chucko/Pelech/Krahn/Fata/Tkaczuk/Klimchuck/Nemisz the list goes on and on and on.



I dont blame DS for trading all those 1sts chasing it when the last 1st rounder we graduated was ...Corey Stillman?? (early 2000's)



Just goes to show what getting it right in draft can do for a franchise.



The point I was trying to make is they need a change up.



I'm gonna link a page that shows our draft picks all time. Good read for anyone browsing this thread and tells a major part of why we are where we are as a franchise.



https://records.nhl.com/franchises/c...aft-selections

[neo45]

One thing I think it is fair to blame the org for mental health/addiction wise is having the young prospects “develop” in Stockton for so long.

It is not a good place for young people. Glad we are out.


But ridiculous to list all those individual cases that basically have nothing in common.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by Jiri Hrdina

It's also just such an odd list
- 3 guys who didn't want to sign with the Flames and didn't
- 2 guys accused of sexual assault
- 1 guy (Howse) who made a personal choice no longer to pursue a pro career
- 2 guys who have suffered from some significant mental wellness challenges (Poirier and Kylington)
- And then a random addition Juuso Valiamaki who is over on the sidelines wondering what the heck he did to show up on this strange list
- Plus Dan Ryder is also sitting there shouting "WTF, why am i NOT on this list"!?!?!

Plus, Dube's charge happened after he was drafted I think. And if I am informed correctly, Kylington's issues were largely triggered after he was drafted (not that it matters anyway).

[GreenLantern2814]

Tod Button has been in this role for 23 years.

Johnny Gaudreau and Matthew Tkachuk are the only two superstars he’s ever drafted.

His top-5 draft picks arguably still include Phaneuf.

He had Ramholt ranked ahead of Weber - this is the only reason I can think that Darryl took some nobody Swiss D ahead of a 6 ft 4 200 lb kid in Kelowna.

Hes a fine enough interview and guy, and yes the GM still has to listen, but his “lists” suck.

By the grace of Jay Feaster, they didn’t flub Gaudreau, and by the grace of Jim Benning they fell ass backwards into Matthew Tkachuk.

I would rather have the guys running FC in charge of this scouting department.

It’s said all the time “scouts must know something we don’t.”

Yeah, but also no. They really don’t.

They should, but They’re watching the same video we are, and they’re making the wrong decisions.

[BigThief]

Originally Posted by GreenLantern2814

He had Ramholt ranked ahead of Weber - this is the only reason I can think that Darryl took some nobody Swiss D ahead of a 6 ft 4 200 lb kid in Kelowna.

Shea Weber had two goals in 70 games in his draft year. The Nashville Predators had three picks in the 2nd round that year and took Weber with the last of the three. Hell I think he was considered a reach in the 2nd around at that point by the Preds. Weber made huge strides post draft though.

[Enoch Root]

Shea Weber was the 14th defenseman taken in his draft. EVERYONE was wrong.

Nashville (who actually picked him), picked 2 other defensemen before him.

The draft isn't perfect. And saying "they missed on this guy' is not how you rate a scout - you have to do it on body of work.

[BigThief]

"They missed this guy has some value" Flames picking Hunter Smith and Mason MacDonald in 2014 are two complete disasters with valuable 2nd round picks but Shea Weber isn't that argument. Mason MacDonald might be the worst goalie prospect I've ever seen.

[AustinL_NHL]

Originally Posted by GreenLantern2814

Tod Button has been in this role for 23 years.

Johnny Gaudreau and Matthew Tkachuk are the only two superstars he’s ever drafted.

His top-5 draft picks arguably still include Phaneuf.

He had Ramholt ranked ahead of Weber - this is the only reason I can think that Darryl took some nobody Swiss D ahead of a 6 ft 4 200 lb kid in Kelowna.

Hes a fine enough interview and guy, and yes the GM still has to listen, but his “lists” suck.

By the grace of Jay Feaster, they didn’t flub Gaudreau, and by the grace of Jim Benning they fell ass backwards into Matthew Tkachuk.

I would rather have the guys running FC in charge of this scouting department.

It’s said all the time “scouts must know something we don’t.”

Yeah, but also no. They really don’t.

They should, but They’re watching the same video we are, and they’re making the wrong decisions.

[albertGQ]

Originally Posted by BigThief

"They missed this guy has some value" Flames picking Hunter Smith and Mason MacDonald in 2014 are two complete disasters with valuable 2nd round picks but Shea Weber isn't that argument. Mason MacDonald might be the worst goalie prospect I've ever seen.

I know some draft lists had MacDonald ahead of Demko but most had Thatcher Demko as the #1 rated goalie. Not a good decision to go against the majority there. I wonder what they say in their scouting that made them think Mason had the higher potential. I know there were concerns about Demko and his injury, but that was a big blunder

Hunter Smith was inexcusable. Horrible pick

[Enoch Root]

We don't even know if those are Button picks.