MF YYC Politics - there, I mega did it

[iggy_oi]

Originally Posted by calgarygeologist

Surely you know that now there are only about half a dozen, maybe a dozen with a few borderline contributors, members here who establish the correct view on every subject and are somehow experts on a vast breadth of topics. You're either with them or you are against them are a drug or whatever disparaging group they want to lump you into.

Do you really gotta add to the dogpile by calling Slava Shirley? Grow up

[CliffFletcher]

Originally Posted by calgarywinning

On this note; how does CP compare to a Reddit or local Facebook groups?

While choosing not to engage the above mentioned, this forum has been a wonderful place to meet people, hire people, sell things and tickets. It also has the ability to uplift or some really cool conversations you just can't get anywhere else. Such as the Parents with Alzheimers/Dimentia.

Perhaps the focus of CP needs to be in attracting new users and old users that are new users?

The CP off-topic forums are very loosely moderate compared to other forums, and compared to CP ten years ago. Mods here used to routinely suspend posters for personal attacks (some users were suspended more often than they were active). But for whatever reason, they stopped. Predictably, the antagonism has gotten worse, especially in the political threads. As a consequence, many moderate posters have stopped posting and the off-topic forums are well down the road to becoming echo chambers.

[powderjunkie]

Originally Posted by Cowboy89

Let's all be clear, one citizen over 18 one vote is the bellwether in our democracy for a number of very good reasons. All discussions otherwise are politically motivated to put a thumb on the scale with a mind towards generating political outcomes more favorable to the person/group suggesting them.

Well we very nearly nailed it the first time when it was just male landowners of a certain age, but just two or three subtle tweaks to value black folks at 3/5ths of a human and then to make them a full human but without drinking fountain rights and then add women = PERFECTION!

[Wormius]

Originally Posted by Slava

It’s comment like these that just make me wonder why even engage on here though. You used to be able to have reasonable discussions here, and now it just devolves into these lame comments implying that people don’t read or are somehow arguing in bad faith.

Come on though. There have been at least a few times recently when somebody provided well-constructed arguments and facts to dispute some anecdote and you just laid out something along the lines of, “lol, I don’t really feel that strongly enough to bother responding”.

[Cecil Terwilliger]

Originally Posted by calgarywinning

On this note; how does CP compare to a Reddit or local Facebook groups?

While choosing not to engage the above mentioned, this forum has been a wonderful place to meet people, hire people, sell things and tickets. It also has the ability to uplift or some really cool conversations you just can't get anywhere else. Such as the Parents with Alzheimers/Dementia.

Perhaps the focus of CP needs to be in attracting new users and old users that are new users?

I’m not on Facebook but I frequent r/calgary. It’s very left leaning just like CP. Same with r/alberta. Reddit has some hardcore right wingers but they tend to congregate in their own subreddits.

[topfiverecords]

Originally Posted by Slava

It’s comment like these that just make me wonder why even engage on here though. You used to be able to have reasonable discussions here, and now it just devolves into these lame comments implying that people don’t read or are somehow arguing in bad faith.

It's not recommended to engage with someone with a participant ribbon.

[btimbit]

Originally Posted by calgarywinning

On this note; how does CP compare to a Reddit or local Facebook groups?

While choosing not to engage the above mentioned, this forum has been a wonderful place to meet people, hire people, sell things and tickets. It also has the ability to uplift or some really cool conversations you just can't get anywhere else. Such as the Parents with Alzheimers/Dementia.

Perhaps the focus of CP needs to be in attracting new users and old users that are new users?

CP seems about the same as other websites, really. Local reddit pages like r/calgary often echo what's said on CP. IMO it's not a site-specific thing but just a certain type of person that is going to engage in longer form discussion like this rather than just something like twitter or Instagram. Most people seem to just be normal, everyday people that are rather centrist overall. Lean right on some things, left on others, and are just tired of day-to-day bs. Of course reddit also has aggressively right-leaning individuals that treat any centrist behavior as communism and cry about left leaning bias, but they're usually ignored. Long answer short, the behaviour here is largely about the same as elsewhere, at least on the sites I visit

Of course being reddit there are the people that cry about echo chambers and start their own pages... which just turn into their type of echo chamber. People are neat

I will say though, r/alberta stands out as very left leaning. I once commented on how much work is spent on inspecting and maintaining old pipelines and basically, I was hitler

[powderjunkie]

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

The CP off-topic forums are very loosely moderate compared to other forums, and compared to CP ten years ago. Mods here used to routinely suspend posters for personal attacks (some users were suspended more often than they were active). But for whatever reason, they stopped. Predictably, the antagonism has gotten worse, especially in the political threads. As a consequence, many moderate posters have stopped posting and the off-topic forums are well down the road to becoming echo chambers.

(sorry for the devastating personal attack)

Pepsifree has certainly been unduly antagonistic by sprinkling a dash of snark in each of his well researched and reasoned posts. It's too bad that perennially online people who feel the need to point out that perennially online people are not a representative sample of humanity or in-person interactions also seem to be really thin skinned and revert to pointing out that perennially online people are not a representative sample of humanity whenever a topic challenges their preconceived notions. Because complaining about how other people engage in a topic is way more fun that engaging in a topic. Or something.



Maybe I've missed it, but I haven't seen anyone proffer an actual counter argument here beyond: 'Citizenship is the line, because of course citizenship is the line and it's absurd to consider anything else.'

What is the actual threat here? 46.38% of citizens turned out to vote last time. Are PR's really so different than the rest of us? PR's who aren't fully committed to life here are going to go out of their way to vote because...queues are fun? That threat certainly seems a valid reason to deny any say to engaged and committed PR's who haven't quite finished jumping through all of the bureaucratic hoops [even though apparently it is the fastest and easiest process ever which is something really neat I learned in this thread]?

[STAMPEDRED]

Originally Posted by powderjunkie

(sorry for the devastating personal attack)

Pepsifree has certainly been unduly antagonistic by sprinkling a dash of snark in each of his well researched and reasoned posts. It's too bad that perennially online people who feel the need to point out that perennially online people are not a representative sample of humanity or in-person interactions also seem to be really thin skinned and revert to pointing out that perennially online people are not a representative sample of humanity whenever a topic challenges their preconceived notions. Because complaining about how other people engage in a topic is way more fun that engaging in a topic. Or something.



Maybe I've missed it, but I haven't seen anyone proffer an actual counter argument here beyond: 'Citizenship is the line, because of course citizenship is the line and it's absurd to consider anything else.'

What is the actual threat here? 46.38% of citizens turned out to vote last time. Are PR's really so different than the rest of us? PR's who aren't fully committed to life here are going to go out of their way to vote because...queues are fun? That threat certainly seems a valid reason to deny any say to engaged and committed PR's who haven't quite finished jumping through all of the bureaucratic hoops [even though apparently it is the fastest and easiest process ever which is something really neat I learned in this thread]?

Good grief that reasoning is beyond stupid. How about everyone, everywhere just go and vote when you are not an actual citizen of that country. Brocade guaranteed there are many rules and ordinances I do not agree with in many places in the world, so I should be able to vote for what I want as my type of representation in any country I want, even though I don’t live there and have zero plans to become a full citizen.

The Calgary council should be all axed entirely for voting in such a stupid election law. They are fully undermining what a democratic society is suppose to be. Fire them all.

[Mr.Coffee]

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

The CP off-topic forums are very loosely moderate compared to other forums, and compared to CP ten years ago. Mods here used to routinely suspend posters for personal attacks (some users were suspended more often than they were active). But for whatever reason, they stopped. Predictably, the antagonism has gotten worse, especially in the political threads. As a consequence, many moderate posters have stopped posting and the off-topic forums are well down the road to becoming echo chambers.

Become. They have become echo chambers. They are now echo chambers.

[edslunch]

Originally Posted by PepsiFree

Slow day at the office. I’m having fun learning more about this topic as I go, but it’d be nice if I could pull more than the dregs of the board who don’t even read stuff into these conversations. I miss Corsi and Peter.

As one of the dregs of the board I admit I didn’t read the origins of this debate, just waded into the middle of endless pages of pros and cons of expanding voting. Your points in favour of the review seemed to be just a list of all the reasons to expand voting, not a discussion of whether it should be reviewed. I would have thought if you wanted to debate the review it would be about what fundamental issue or opportunity are they trying to address, why now, and importantly, what are the criteria for deciding this question.

If council wants to explore it so be it, but I don’t see it as a pressing issue. I’m also not sure what there is to explore because frankly, basing it on citizenship is not a decision derived from logic or economics or class - it’s based on the idea that citizenship confers certain rights and the right to vote is one of them.

For every PR who contributes economically to the community I’ll give you an international student, TFW, or Canadian who doesn’t to any significant degree. (And don’t read xenophobia into that sentence, they’re just ready examples of more transient residents)

Some PRs may be more politically and community-engaged than average but if the issue is lack of political engagement and low turnout it seems like motivating the voting populace is the way to go, not just expanding it.

As far as fairness and diversity go, almost anyone can become a citizen and are welcome here whether they do or not.

Regarding citizen’s voting rights, I don’t think any citizen should be barred from voting, except perhaps if they have been convicted of treason. I feel like even the most vile criminals are paying their debt through punishment but that doesn’t make them effectively non-citizens. I can’t see any punishment or deterrence factor in that.

But I’m back to arguing my view of the citizenship requirement. Backing up, what is council trying to address, why now, and what should the criteria be. I can’t think of objective criteria for such a review because I don’t think there really are any.

[edslunch]

Originally Posted by calgarywinning

On this note; how does CP compare to a Reddit or local Facebook groups?

While choosing not to engage the above mentioned, this forum has been a wonderful place to meet people, hire people, sell things and tickets. It also has the ability to uplift or some really cool conversations you just can't get anywhere else. Such as the Parents with Alzheimers/Dementia.

Perhaps the focus of CP needs to be in attracting new users and old users that are new users?

What I like about CP is that it is a community that shares a few common things - the Flames and Calgary primarily - but covers a wide variety of topics. I’d wager that most active posters have engaged in most threads or at least forums over a longer period of time so are not internet randos even if they are anonymous in real life. You ‘know’ the people you’re interacting with or just watching, so even if you strongly disagree with a take it doesn’t get as nasty as the typical Twitter or Reddit feed. While it’s true that some of the posters in some of the threads close ranks in certain topics, in general the people who are called out as trolls are genuinely trolls just trying to rile people up.

For me, it’s actually a community, warts and all.

[pylon]

Originally Posted by Mr.Coffee

Become. They have become echo chambers. They are now echo chambers.

I've said it many times, and I'll say it again.

I've probably met more posters from this site than any other user. Around 100-120 people over the last 16-17 years have become great clients from back when I was just a sales guy on the floor looking for a few leads, and many became repeat ones to this day.

Legendary posters that went silent. Casual posters that went pretty much unknown. Lurkers. I became a client of many of them as well. I will always appreciate CalgaryPuck for allowing those opportunities to exist.

However, almost every single one that has become a return client, 95% of them gave up on this site because it turned into a Hyper Socialist Liberal echo chamber. Most of them were tired of being ridiculed, talked down to and bullied for having a Conservative View. In a Conservative Province, for a team with a majority Conservative fan base... Gondek getting boo'd off the ice was pretty much all you needed to see there. The opinions on this site reflect a fringe left element which doesn't align with the typical client of the team this site was originally based upon, this Province, or the majority of Albertans you'd talk to in the street. So almost all have stopped posting, and they left.

I'll paraphrase what one of these past members recently said "Unless you have your Hasan Piker T-shirt, your Young Turks Patreon membership, and your Purple Nenshi covid mask on full display the Socialist CPCP army will eat you alive."

I laughed at how ridiculous it sounded, and how true it actually is. But it's sad a handful of posters have had this effect and ruined a once awesome place to shoot the sh1t.

I know my opinions aren't always agreed with here, but even when I have come in to try and give useful advice, in my field of expertise, with no political opinion whatsoever, the Socialist CPCP SJW army just can't avoid taking shots at you.

I am a free speech absolutist, so I'm OK with it. I would rather live with that that any sort of censorship. However, the dwindling of this site, and what I am assuming eventual downfall of it, can be pinned on about 10-15 terminally online posters in the off topic with raging cases of "Smartest person in the room syndrome." that have run off some really great people with their utter lack of civility.

It's an uncomfortable truth, but true.

[Cowboy89]

Originally Posted by powderjunkie

Well we very nearly nailed it the first time when it was just male landowners of a certain age, but just two or three subtle tweaks to value black folks at 3/5ths of a human and then to make them a full human but without drinking fountain rights and then add women = PERFECTION!

https://www.canada.ca/en/immigration...igibility.html

I must have missed the Y chromosome genetic test and the melatonin test. Apparently all genders and melatonin shades can apply!

Can the next topic on here or in the provincial politics thread or in the Federal politics thread or in the US politics thread have discussion and debate free of baseless racism claims and character assassinatons?

[btimbit]

This site is dwindling because of a combination of forums dying overall, and admins making it hard for new users to sign up. There are absolutely bullies in the off-topic forum, but it's hardly some sort of political divide. People just don't like when their wacky views get challenged and they can't back them up, so instead they claim they're bullied and go peddle their nonsense elsewhere. Funny how instead of simply just not engaging in political discussion if that bothers them, they claim they're being suppressed and disappear. Then cry about echo chambers just because their dumbass opinions weren't echoed

[pylon]

Originally Posted by btimbit

This site is dwindling because of a combination of forums dying overall, and admins making it hard for new users to sign up. There are absolutely bullies in the off-topic forum, but it's hardly some sort of political divide. People just don't like when their wacky views get challenged and they can't back them up, so instead they claim they're bullied and go peddle their nonsense elsewhere. Funny how instead of simply just not engaging in political discussion if that bothers them, they claim they're being suppressed and disappear

I'm sure some of the above is true, but again, I sit down with a ton of past users IRL, and the message is what I posted. I am sure it is a combination of both, but you're fooling yourself if you don't think some of these posters are simply driving people away who are too busy with life to engage in defending their position with someone who can sit here for 10 hours wikipedia'ing their way through their leftist argument.

[btimbit]

Originally Posted by pylon

I'm sure some of the above is true, but again, I sit down with a ton of past users IRL, and the message is what I posted. I am sure it is a combination of both, but you're fooling yourself if you don't think some of these posters are simply driving people away who don't have the are too busy with life to engage in defending their position with someone who can sit here for 10 hours wikipedia'ing their way through their leftist argument.

There's certainly some truth to what you're saying, I'm sure if we both made a list of posters we viewed as unnecessarily antagonistic there would be a ton of overlap.

I would just argue the problem is a-holes, not their political views. If people are truly leaving just because their political views aren't reciprocated and they seek an echo chamber, I say good riddance. Calling it a leftist problem is laughable

[bizaro86]

Originally Posted by PepsiFree

I know you think that, you’ve said it like seven times without being able to or just refusing to explain why you think it’s a good place to draw the line. Remember, the conversation started because an emigrant to the US decided Calgary city council (that’s in Canada) even exploring the idea that people who actually live here could vote here should have been laughed out of the room, despite the idea working in other healthy democracies across the world.

<clipped giant wall of text>

Whether it's good policy or not for people with PR to have a vote ultimately has nothing to do with the original question you're so doggedly ensuring gets discussed. The reason it's dumb for council to debate/vote on this issue is that isn't up to them.

They have limited council time and we have plenty of local issues they could spend it on where they have actual power. (Housing, policing, etc)

So whether New Zealand allowed non-citizens to vote has about as much to do with it as what the council votes. Neither get to decide.

[pylon]

Originally Posted by btimbit

There's certainly some truth to what you're saying, I'm sure if we both made a list of posters we viewed as unnecessarily antagonistic there would be a ton of overlap.

I would just argue the problem is a-holes, not their political views.If people are truly leaving just because their political views aren't reciprocated and they seek an echo chamber, I say good riddance. Calling it a leftist problem is laughable

That's where we disagree.

And we see it in this very thread. The biggest A-holes on this site, tend to be left leaning. Look at the interactions both Slava and Cowboy89's put up with in this thread. And there's a pattern to it.

[btimbit]

Originally Posted by pylon

That's where we disagree.

And we see it in this very thread. The biggest A-holes on this site, tend to be left leaning. Look at the interactions both Slava and Cowboy89's put up with in this thread. And there's a pattern to it.

That's one of the few areas where I like reddit. When one silly discussion just dives down a rabbit hole and I don't care, you just minimize that particular discussion and keep going with the rest of the discussion

That's definitely where we disagree. I still don't see that conversation as a left vs right problem. Just people that like to argue, arguing about nothing