2007 Calgary Vipers Thread

[ParaNoia]

Also some add-on info on how Young had piss others off in Calgary...He basically wasn't a big supporter of local minor ball programs...

last year when a local youth ball league was hosting a regional tournament in Foothill Stadiums, the parents and organizers were refused to sell hotdogs to do some fund raising...everyone was forced to buy the "viper hotdogs" in Foothill's concession....

plus the Dwags' situation, the Dions' situation....a lot more than just the concession stands...

that's just sad. I can't support a so-called "professional" team in city that doesn't support the local youth program.

[worth]

I'm not sure on the specifics, but it was announced at the home opener that the Vipers were building a couple of training facilities that I believe will be used by local minor players.

[Julio]

Originally Posted by ParaNoia

Also some add-on info on how Young had piss others off in Calgary...He basically wasn't a big supporter of local minor ball programs...

last year when a local youth ball league was hosting a regional tournament in Foothill Stadiums, the parents and organizers were refused to sell hotdogs to do some fund raising...everyone was forced to buy the "viper hotdogs" in Foothill's concession....

plus the Dwags' situation, the Dions' situation....a lot more than just the concession stands...

that's just sad. I can't support a so-called "professional" team in city that doesn't support the local youth program.

I'm no big fan of Peter Young (remember the Calgary Drillers?) but I think the 'parents couldn't sell hot dogs' thing is pretty silly.
Change baseball to hockey, Vipers to Flames, and Foothills to Saddledome, and do you think the Flames would let anybody sell food in the Dome for a minor hockey tournament? No way.

[Clever_Iggy]

Originally Posted by Julio

I'm no big fan of Peter Young (remember the Calgary Drillers?) but I think the 'parents couldn't sell hot dogs' thing is pretty silly.
Change baseball to hockey, Vipers to Flames, and Foothills to Saddledome, and do you think the Flames would let anybody sell food in the Dome for a minor hockey tournament? No way.

The Flames arent trying to become established in the city and create a fan base. The Flames sell out every game for the past how many games? The Flames have been in the city for years.

Very different situations.

[Flames in 07]

Originally Posted by Clever_Iggy

I was heavily involved with the former Calgary Cannons throughout the mid to late 90s. The Cannons owner, Russ Parker, was willing to invest alot of his own money into a new stadium downtown or massive improvements to Foothills Stadium. However, the city never offered any assistance. That was the beginning of the end for the highest level of baseball you can get without being in the majors. Foothills park was by far the worst AAA park in the league and most players said that it was in the bottom half of single A parks.

To be honest, I think Calgary's fans are fickle and really only want a hockey team and the CFL. Lacrosse has been successful so far, but their format (1 game every few weeks) and the facilities allow for fans to become more engaged with the product. Calgary has tried basketball and a variety of baseball with limited success.

I agree that Young hasnt run the team well, but even if he had, I dont think the results would have been that much different. The stadium is terrible, the location is terrible, the product (Independent baseball....compared to AAA) is poor and there isnt any sign from the city that they are interested in anything other than the NHL and CFL.

I think we need to fix the stadium and location problem before we can profess how fickle the town is. The dumbest thing in the history of this city might be turning what could have been a great jr football stadium or AAA stadium location and turning it into a stakeboard park downtown. Unreal ... anyway, if they had a decent stadium I in a good location it would do quite well in Cgy.

[Juventus3]

Originally Posted by Flames in 07

I think we need to fix the stadium and location problem before we can profess how fickle the town is. The dumbest thing in the history of this city might be turning what could have been a great jr football stadium or AAA stadium location and turning it into a stakeboard park downtown. Unreal ... anyway, if they had a decent stadium I in a good location it would do quite well in Cgy.

You're completely right. I have to say i've never thought about that shaw park being anything other than a skatepark, but now that you mention it...wow. What a true waste of money/space.

[Clever_Iggy]

Originally Posted by Flames in 07

I think we need to fix the stadium and location problem before we can profess how fickle the town is. The dumbest thing in the history of this city might be turning what could have been a great jr football stadium or AAA stadium location and turning it into a stakeboard park downtown. Unreal ... anyway, if they had a decent stadium I in a good location it would do quite well in Cgy.

Very true. The skate park was stupid and I think capturing that downtown crowd after work for a ball game and making the stadium more accessible for everyone outside of the NW would have been great. Too bad the city didnt grab onto that one.

The Cannons were a level of baseball very few places get the opportunity to enjoy - it's really too bad things didnt work out.

[Cowboy89]

Originally Posted by Clever_Iggy

Very true. The skate park was stupid and I think capturing that downtown crowd after work for a ball game and making the stadium more accessible for everyone outside of the NW would have been great. Too bad the city didnt grab onto that one.

The Cannons were a level of baseball very few places get the opportunity to enjoy - it's really too bad things didnt work out.

Agreed. I loved the Cannons. The level of play was vastly superior and there was at least a sense of legitimacy being affiliated with a major league club with proper ownership. However the problem was never a new stadium or better ownership or anything. Just simply that baseball games in April and May in Calgary do not work. Baseball wasn't invented for climate's like ours. As a owner of an affiliated baseball team in Calgary you have to almost concede many bad-weather days where you're going to be operating at a loss. Combine that with the fact that travel is going to be rough due to lack of proximity to similar baseball markets in the PCL and it's just not worth it no matter how many people live here.

The Vipers however are just low quality baseball and many Calgarians that used to go to Cannons games don't go because it just isn't the same. Combine the lower quality baseball with operational failures and an owner that has done little to endear himself to the local baseball community and viola another baseball failure.

[rubecube]

Originally Posted by Clever_Iggy

To be honest, I think Calgary's fans are fickle and really only want a hockey team and the CFL. Lacrosse has been successful so far, but their format (1 game every few weeks) and the facilities allow for fans to become more engaged with the product. Calgary has tried basketball and a variety of baseball with limited success.

That's pretty unfair. I remember when I was a little kid I went to about 15-20 Cannons games a year with my parents. I absolutely loved the Cannons and I remember the turn outs being very big.

I never had any connection with them, but everyone has always told me that the Calgary 88s were one of the biggest basketball draws in a very poorly run league.

The Hitmen do very well in a city that has an NHL team - much better than any WHL team has done in Edmonton and Vancouver. Anybody else remember the Edmonton Ice (LOL).

The Stamps used to sell out every game until the fans became fed up with ownership (Feterik). Forzani and Co. have done a very admirable job in turning that around and we're seeing vast improvements. I know I felt incredibly insulted as a fan when Feterik and Fateri we're running that team into the ground and everyone but them were willing to admit it.

Calgary is a great sports town when given a fighting chance. Not even great fans can compensate for inept ownership.

[Resolute 14]

This'll be a bit of a kick in the teeth to the Vipers: The Okotoks Dawgs have completely sold out their home opener tonight. 2000+ in attendance tonight, possibly more if the berm area is ready, more than the Vipers drew for their opener.

The Dawgs also have over 900 season tickets sold, which will put their season ticket average on par with the Vipers announced attendance average.

On the field for Calgary, they split a doubleheader with Edmonton last night to pull back into a three way tie for first place in the North with Winnipeg and Fargo-Moorhead.

[BerubeHater]

To be honest, I don't know who would want to the DAWGS play.

The part about them having 12 years of history is misleading. When I played competetive baseball from 15-18, we played against the DAWGS.

I know that isn't the case now, but I still wouldn't spend money to watch them.

[CrusaderPi]

I played ball against the Dawgs back in '98. They've got a nice little program there that is pretty good for helping local kids find colleges. But the baseball isn't any better than the various Junior league playing around the province. And it's certainly not something comparable to a team of full professionals many of whom have seen time in the high minors (or even the majors in a few cases).

[JiriHrdina]

Originally Posted by CrusaderPi

I played ball against the Dawgs back in '98. They've got a nice little program there that is pretty good for helping local kids find colleges. But the baseball isn't any better than the various Junior league playing around the province. And it's certainly not something comparable to a team of full professionals many of whom have seen time in the high minors (or even the majors in a few cases).

I disagree. I'd rather watch some young guys learning the game still as opposed to some washed up pros that are not even in a team system at all.

[BerubeHater]

Originally Posted by JiriHrdina

I disagree. I'd rather watch some young guys learning the game still as opposed to some washed up pros that are not even in a team system at all.

But you could go to many ballparks around Alberta, such as shouldice, and watch the same caliber of baseball.

I would say if you weren't one of the better players by the time you are 18, you pretty much have no shot at the pros, especially if you are from Canada.

[Resolute 14]

Having seen plenty of PBL games, and a few NWL games, I have no doubt that the calibre of baseball the Dawgs play is about single-A. This isn't a Babe Ruth or high school team we are talking about. It is not the same level as what is played at Shouldice.

The Northern League is around AA.

There is no doubt that the Vipers are a higher calibre brand than the Dawgs. The problem, for Calgary, is that the entire experience is far superior at a Dawgs game than it is at a Vipers game. For the average fan, the overall experience is more likely to turn them into a returning fan than the calibre of play itself is.

On the field, the Vipers beat the snot out of Winnipeg 16-1 on Sunday (and the one run the Goldeyes got was charity - it was "scored" just before the third out on a force play), then beat Fargo last night. Still sitting 1 game back of Winnipeg for the division lead.

[BerubeHater]

Originally Posted by Snakeeye

Having seen plenty of PBL games, and a few NWL games, I have no doubt that the calibre of baseball the Dawgs play is about single-A. This isn't a Babe Ruth or high school team we are talking about. It is not the same level as what is played at Shouldice.

The Northern League is around AA.

There is no doubt that the Vipers are a higher calibre brand than the Dawgs. The problem, for Calgary, is that the entire experience is far superior at a Dawgs game than it is at a Vipers game. For the average fan, the overall experience is more likely to turn them into a returning fan than the calibre of play itself is.

On the field, the Vipers beat the snot out of Winnipeg 16-1 on Sunday (and the one run the Goldeyes got was charity - it was "scored" just before the third out on a force play), then beat Fargo last night. Still sitting 1 game back of Winnipeg for the division lead.

I agree that it is higher caliber than babe ruth, but it couldn't be that much different from when we played the DAWGS when I was 18.

They were pretty competetive games and I am pretty sure that the majority of the palyers from that team went on to play on the first DAWGS team at Foothills.

I can't vouch for the quality of baseball at shouldice now, as I haven't been since I played, but I am assuming it has digressed like the rest of baseball in Calgary.

I am not trying to defend the Vipers as I don't think they are really worth it either. I just wish we had at least a single A team that was part of a major league organization again. At least a good chunk of the players have real potential.

[JiriHrdina]

Look at it this way. Given a choice would I watch a game in the AJHL or BCJHL or the ECHL or Colonial League. I would choose the former as I don't mind watching kids still learning the game over pros who are likely never going to get back anywhere near the majors.

[Resolute 14]

Originally Posted by BerubeHater

I agree that it is higher caliber than babe ruth, but it couldn't be that much different from when we played the DAWGS when I was 18.

They were pretty competetive games and I am pretty sure that the majority of the palyers from that team went on to play on the first DAWGS team at Foothills.

You are correct in the second paragraph. IIRC, the first WMBL Dawgs team in 2003 was made up of several holdovers from the junior Dawgs team. They have since begun to grow past those routes, and the team is now a full fledged college summer team.

I am not trying to defend the Vipers as I don't think they are really worth it either. I just wish we had at least a single A team that was part of a major league organization again. At least a good chunk of the players have real potential.

Unfortunately, geography prevents it. The only affiliated leauges that are close are the Pioneer League (Rookie) and the Northwest League (short season-A). The latter might be ideal, but the closest NWL team to us is Spokane. That is just too long a trip.

The Northern League is good ball. Its not AAA, and it isnt affiliated, but there have been some great players who have gone through. If Calgary had an ownership group that had a clue about marketing the game, and how to run in game promotions, this team would be doing a hell of a lot better than it is now. Winnipeg is one of the finest minor league organizations in baseball, and St. Paul (now in the American Association) are legendary for their promotions. If Gidney and Young spent more time on the entertainment value of the product than on buying shiny yellow seats, there might not be so many empty, shiny, yellow seats.

[Resolute 14]

The Vipers continue to push for the first half pennant, taking a half game lead over Fargo, and a 1.5 game lead over the Goldeyes after tonight's win in Winnipeg. About 11 games to go.

Some decent crowds last weekend as well. 2200, 4000 and 2500.

[Clever_Iggy]

Originally Posted by Snakeeye

Having seen plenty of PBL games, and a few NWL games, I have no doubt that the calibre of baseball the Dawgs play is about single-A. This isn't a Babe Ruth or high school team we are talking about. It is not the same level as what is played at Shouldice.

The Northern League is around AA.

There is no doubt that the Vipers are a higher calibre brand than the Dawgs. The problem, for Calgary, is that the entire experience is far superior at a Dawgs game than it is at a Vipers game. For the average fan, the overall experience is more likely to turn them into a returning fan than the calibre of play itself is.

On the field, the Vipers beat the snot out of Winnipeg 16-1 on Sunday (and the one run the Goldeyes got was charity - it was "scored" just before the third out on a force play), then beat Fargo last night. Still sitting 1 game back of Winnipeg for the division lead.

Wait... Dawgs is about the equivalent of single A ball? Absolutely no way. And the Northern League is no where near AA ball. No where close. The skill level in A and AA are far greater than anything the Northern league or, chuckle, the Dawgs.