[PGT] Flames 6 Arizona 5 - whine about the tank here

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

It’s more about the odds of winning the lottery.

But as we’re seeing, it’s really hard to break into the bottom echelon in this league. Not only are the teams really bad, but once they’re eliminated from playoff contention they typically play even worse.

Other than the weird two round 2020 bubble lottery NYR won , no team has won the 1OA lottery out of 6th place or higher.

[Bill Bumface]

Originally Posted by The Yen Man

The real embarrassment are the couch GMs wanting the players to just give up at the end of the season when games don't matter. That doesn't breed good culture going forward. Plus, fans pay money to see them play.

Correct, and this is why it's on the coaching staff. If Huska isn't bag skating these guys for 8 hours before every game, we're never going to pick #1.

[GioforPM]

The Flames were totally underwater in possession stats last night. They got outshot and let 5 in. It just so happened that AZ allowed 6 goals on 31 shots. And Anaheim allowed 6 goals on 27 shots. It's pretty hard to lose those games.

[Ba'alzamon]

sigh. How many years of this pointless "discussion" do we have to look forward to?

Look, I get believing that earlier picks are better for acquiring elite talent. They are; but picking later doesn't make Conroy's job impossible, it just makes it harder. Conroy and co. have clearly emphasized scouting in the early stages of this retool. Surely none of you believe that they aren't aware that the organization needs elite talent?

Maybe they'll be able to Dallas this and get some players that significantly out-produce their draft position. Or, maybe they won't. But you can bet they'll be trying.

In any case, just enjoy the ride. They'll win some, they'll lose some. Some players will struggle, some will settle in. Coronato and Zary both scored in this one; that's nice, isn't it? We're all fans, and we all want the organization to succeed. We all want championships. The guys in charge want to win at least as much as we do, and they'll do what they think is best in order to make that happen.

At the very least, we can see an identity taking shape in this group, can't we?

[Ba'alzamon]

^ Sorry about the meandering post, I've had a lot on my mind lately.

[CalgaryFan1988]

Aren't we winning the lottery anyways? Who cares if we finish 7th or 10th.

[fotze2]

Originally Posted by Bill Bumface

Correct, and this is why it's on the coaching staff. If Huska isn't bag skating these guys for 8 hours before every game, we're never going to pick #1.

I like how hockey fans think the only lever a coach has is the bag skate.

[Lanny_McDonald]

I don't mind the team winning after they have been eliminated, if they do so with the right players getting time on the ice. When you see Weegar with 28+ minutes, Sharagovich with 22+ minutes, Backlund with 20+ minutes, and Kadri with 18+ minutes, then look and see Posposil with 12:31, Zary with 14:43, Coronato with 13:39, and Okhoiut with 10:59, I think the team is missing the point and doing more harm than good. What the hell are we playing veterans so much for in games that mean nothing to them but could be invaluable for a kid trying to learn and build some confidence?

[Fighting Banana Slug]

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

It’s more about the odds of winning the lottery.

But as we’re seeing, it’s really hard to break into the bottom echelon in this league. Not only are the teams really bad, but once they’re eliminated from playoff contention they typically play even worse.

That's right, and the Flames have tanked hard post-deadline. Mushy middle is light years ahead of where we end up. Not surprising they did so poorly (or tanked so well) with the talent on D in particular.

They were never going to finish bottom 6. Maybe 7, but most likely 8 or 9.

So worst case scenario, they might have "lost" 3% of the lottery odds? More likely 1%?

The Flames tanked remarkably hard. NJ, Minny, Pit are way up on them now, which is where the "we'll finish 17th for sure" crowd would have them. Even the Arizona game, the Flames were really awful. They would have lost to competent goaltending 10 times out of 10.

[dino7c]

All debate aside it's a pretty ridiculous system, failure is too highly rewarded. People pay $200 to watch a game that is better to lose? With the cap there should be no excuses to suck forever unless you are poorly managed. Non playoff teams should have an even lottery with restrictions on how many top 3 picks a team can have over a few years.

Fans should never have to cheer for losses and teams shouldn't be punished for trying to win IMO

[The Yen Man]

I wish there was an inverse standings tournament, where teams eliminated have to play a mini tournament for draft order. Not sure how that would fly with the NHLPA, but I'd love it as a fan.

[Ba'alzamon]

Originally Posted by The Yen Man

I wish there was an inverse standings tournament, where teams eliminated have to play a mini tournament for draft order. Not sure how that would fly with the NHLPA, but I'd love it as a fan.

I think scheduling would be the main obstacle (tv schedule is already pretty full in the first round of the playoffs). But other leagues do relegation tournaments, so you never know. It is a neat idea.

[TrentCrimmIndependent]

I'll be saddened if we're going to sewer our draft position with a couple late nothing-wins.

We *need* to be in that top tier where we can grab one of the 5D, Demidiov, Eiserman, Catton, Lindstrom, or Iggy.

Chances are we will, but it wouldn't be ideal to have no choice from that tier and basically have the decision made for us because we're picking from the last 1-2 players before the talent drops off.

8th gives you some choice and maybe a top center, especially if someone slides because MTL wants Tij.

10th gives you a lot less choice.

[All In Good Time]

Originally Posted by The Yen Man

I wish there was an inverse standings tournament, where teams eliminated have to play a mini tournament for draft order. Not sure how that would fly with the NHLPA, but I'd love it as a fan.

Once you are eliminated, you start collecting points for draft position

[TrentCrimmIndependent]

Originally Posted by All In Good Time

Once you are eliminated, you start collecting points for draft position

This.

In a way it still gives the worst teams a leg up as they'd be eliminated first.

[FlamesAddiction]

Originally Posted by All In Good Time

Once you are eliminated, you start collecting points for draft position

I think this is what they decided to to in the new Women's professional league.

[dino7c]

Originally Posted by TheIronMaiden

I am in no hurry, the Flames are almost guaranteed a top 5 pick next season.
This is the second of many many many playoff misses in a row.

Why exactly? the day they traded Zadorov they had been icing a lineup with Zadorov, Lindholm, Tanev, and Hanifin and they were 1 game under .500

today they are....one game under .500
#1 PP in the NHL since mid March (Kuz)

[topfiverecords]

That system probably benefits the Oilers when they're eliminated by American Thanksgiving.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by All In Good Time

Once you are eliminated, you start collecting points for draft position

Or, especially if they increase PO spots as some people here discussed on reallignment, just lottery the whole beginning of the draft with equal chances for everyone who misses. No incentive to tank to the bottom, but give anyone who doesn't make the POs an equal shot to improve.

[Igottago]

Originally Posted by dino7c

All debate aside it's a pretty ridiculous system, failure is too highly rewarded. People pay $200 to watch a game that is better to lose? With the cap there should be no excuses to suck forever unless you are poorly managed. Non playoff teams should have an even lottery with restrictions on how many top 3 picks a team can have over a few years.

Fans should never have to cheer for losses and teams shouldn't be punished for trying to win IMO

You are totally correct, its ridiculous. But the system is the system and you either use it to your advantage or you don't. Unfortunately the best draft picks and generational talents don't generally get awarded to teams for fighting to the end. The moral virtues of not tanking mean very little.