Help Me Choose A Car

[bluejays]

Ok. Here's the thing. I just got an entry-level job and need a car instead of using the parents. After using mom and pop's 01 Camry and 02 Sebring, and though being a North American car lover myself, I really like what Toyota brings to the table - dependability. The advantage of North American used vehicles is that they can be had much cheaper which is also a consideration. So here's the thing, my mom has a friend who works at Toyota (who I don't know to trust or not), who can apparently get a good deal at his dealership. I'm using CP as a contingency plan though, so here are my requirements of a USED vehicle:

1) Dependability - meaning the less maintanance the better
2) Gas Consumption - again, the less, the better (so likely a 4 Cylinder)
3) Has to be a 2002 model or newer (but a bit of flexability here)
4) Has to be under 100,000KM's and under a $12,000 price tag on the road.
5) Sporty, Boxy, Old-man's car, I don't care...just something that is dependable is #1.

...basically, although I want used, I would like suggestions as to your experiences with certain Brands, Years or Models and some suggestions as to each.

I also like the Yaris for some odd reason and although I hate Honda's, I like the Element too.

Thanks guys (and gals).

[Dion]

Get a copy of Phil Edmundston's Lemonaid guide. He does a pretty good job of evaluating each vehicle. Plus he lists all the recalls and secret warranties.

http://www.lemonaidcars.com/

[tkflames]

Originally Posted by fleury

Ok. Here's the thing. I just got an entry-level job and need a car instead of using the parents. After using mom and pop's 01 Camry and 02 Sebring, and though being a North American car lover myself, I really like what Toyota brings to the table - dependability. The advantage of North American used vehicles is that they can be had much cheaper which is also a consideration. So here's the thing, my mom has a friend who works at Toyota (who I don't know to trust or not), who can apparently get a good deal at his dealership. I'm using CP as a contingency plan though, so here are my requirements of a USED vehicle:

1) Dependability - meaning the less maintanance the better
2) Gas Consumption - again, the less, the better (so likely a 4 Cylinder)
3) Has to be a 2002 model or newer (but a bit of flexability here)
4) Has to be under 100,000KM's and under a $12,000 price tag on the road.
5) Sporty, Boxy, Old-man's car, I don't care...just something that is dependable is #1.

...basically, although I want used, I would like suggestions as to your experiences with certain Brands, Years or Models and some suggestions as to each.

I also like the Yaris for some odd reason and although I hate Honda's, I like the Element too.

Thanks guys (and gals).

Both the Civic and Echo will give you all of the above listed criteria at the price you are looking for with reasonable dependability. I know even at the Toyota dealership (in 2002) a 2000 echo was available in that price range including addons etc. Good luck, but from my experience staying away from north american cars is always a good idea.

[Dion]

For example:

http://www.lemonaidcars.com/updates.html#hybrid

Hybrid Hype
We don’t recommend electric and gasoline engine hybrids because their fuel economy can be 40 percent worse than the automakers report, their long-term reliability is unknown, battery replacement cost is estimated to run as high as $8,000 (U.S.), expensive electric motors are predicted to have a higfh failure rate from corrosion, their retail prices are incredibly high, and the potential resale value is no better than similar vehicles equipped with a conventional engine. For example, a 2001 Prius that originally sold for $29,990 is now valued at a disappointing $12,000 (and we’re only two years away from the expiration of that $8,000 battery warranty). Compare that to the price of a fully-equipped 2001 Camry CE V6, that sells for about $1,000 more--with no battery worries.

[Dion]

Originally Posted by tkflames

Good luck, but from my experience staying away from north american cars is always a good idea.

Depends on the vehicle. I drive a 2005 Ford Escape that has 55,000 kims. So far there have been zero problems with it. Best vehicle I have ever owned.

[bluejays]

Originally Posted by tkflames

Both the Civic and Echo will give you all of the above listed criteria at the price you are looking for with reasonable dependability. I know even at the Toyota dealership (in 2002) a 2000 echo was available in that price range including addons etc. Good luck, but from my experience staying away from north american cars is always a good idea.

Thanks for the advice, though, the Echo is one car that I can't stand the look of (even though it was the predecessor for the Yaris...I should have put that in the requirements) . Civics are not my cup of tea, but the newer ones are great and above all they are dependable. Thanks for the advice...noted.

[Bring_Back_Shantz]

I gotta throw the Cavalier into the ring for you.

the newer ones (I had an 03) are great cars and really dependable/great on gas. Plus you can get a great deal on one becuase there are a million of them around.

You should be able to get an 03 (pretty basic package, ie no power and a standard transmission) 2 door for somewhere south of $5-6k.

[alltherage]

Stick to imports man, you pay more initially but they have lasting appeal. If you want to buy used, then whatever you want, but residual value is always stronger in imports.

[bluejays]

Originally Posted by alltherage

Stick to imports man, you pay more initially but they have lasting appeal. If you want to buy used, then whatever you want, but residual value is always stronger in imports.

Here's another thing about the car that I will buy...I don't really care about flipping it. I'm just going to use it until it dies (unless I get that superjob and can finally get my Corvette).

[Regulator75]

I have a 2004 Acura EL Premium, great little car. Good on gas and looks great too!

55,000 KM's and rising quickly. No issues at all.

However I don't know the price of the used one, just thought I would add my two bits.

Good Luck!

[HitterD]

Originally Posted by tkflames

Good luck, but from my experience staying away from north american cars is always a good idea.

I really don't want to get the Domestic vs Import debate going again, but I'll just put in my opinion.

I buy nothing but american made cars nowadays.

From my friends, family and my own experience, There is really not a huge difference in reliability between the two. Many friends have got lemons from Honda and Toyota for example. I've never had a major problem with Chevy, but I know people who have.

The point is, all car manufacturers make lemons. In fact, buying a car in general is really a crapshoot. You just get unlucky sometimes.

I read a report from JB Power and Associates (?) on CP last year that really confirmed this for me. (can't seem to find the thread) The reports looked at alot of the car manufacturers, and the average repairs in the first 2 years with the vehicle. The results were very close, and GM actually came out ahead of Toyota for that year.

In my opinion, I'll buy a domestic from now on, especially used. A Honda or Toyota are more expensive, and IMO you don't get much more value for what you pay for them. They tend to be more expensive to repair as well, and if they aren't REALLY that much more reliable than domestics, why spend the extra cash?

The way I look at it is, if I'm going to spend $3000 more for an equivilant import vehicle as compared to a domestic, what are the chances that I will have $3000 more in repairs 9on the domestic) during the time I have the vehicle? I think its unlikely, therefore I'll buy the domestic.

Anyway, to each there own. I just don't want people to get misinformed. ANY car on the used market can be unreliable, and I'd doubt that domestic cars will be any better or worse than a Honda or Toyota. You just need to get lucky either way.

[Dion]

Originally Posted by alltherage

Stick to imports man, you pay more initially but they have lasting appeal. If you want to buy used, then whatever you want, but residual value is always stronger in imports.

You may want to read this:

http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/?p=2043

At some point, Toyota became a victim of its own success. The company’s double quick expansion, from perennial underdog to voracious overlord, has compromised their unique selling point: product quality. Specifically, Toyota has suffered a plague of recalls around the world. In 2003, the automaker recalled 200k American vehicles. In 2004, the number increased fivefold, to a little over one million vehicles. In the following year, the number leaped again, more than doubling to 2.2 million. So far this year, Toyota has announced five recalls affecting approximately 900K vehicles.

[HitterD]

Originally Posted by Bring_Back_Shantz

I gotta throw the Cavalier into the ring for you.

the newer ones (I had an 03) are great cars and really dependable/great on gas. Plus you can get a great deal on one becuase there are a million of them around.

You should be able to get an 03 (pretty basic package, ie no power and a standard transmission) 2 door for somewhere south of $5-6k.

100% agree

I have an 2003 Z24 myself (for now, I'm about to list it).

Great car, never had a problem with it, and it's got over 100,000 KM.

I think they are worth it, like you said, much less expensive for an equivalent vehicle IMO

[Hack&Lube]

Originally Posted by HitterD

I really don't want to get the Domestic vs Import debate going again, but I'll just put in my opinion.

I buy nothing but american made cars nowadays.

From my friends, family and my own experience, There is really not a huge difference in reliability between the two. Many friends have got lemons from Honda and Toyota for example. I've never had a major problem with Chevy, but I know people who have.

The point is, all car manufacturers make lemons. In fact, buying a car in general is really a crapshoot. You just get unlucky sometimes.

I read a report from JB Power and Associates (?) on CP last year that really confirmed this for me. (can't seem to find the thread) The reports looked at alot of the car manufacturers, and the average repairs in the first 2 years with the vehicle. The results were very close, and GM actually came out ahead of Toyota for that year.

In my opinion, I'll buy a domestic from now on, especially used. A Honda or Toyota are more expensive, and IMO you don't get much more value for what you pay for them. They tend to be more expensive to repair as well, and if they aren't REALLY that much more reliable than domestics, why spend the extra cash?

The way I look at it is, if I'm going to spend $3000 more for an equivilant import vehicle as compared to a domestic, what are the chances that I will have $3000 more in repairs 9on the domestic) during the time I have the vehicle? I think its unlikely, therefore I'll buy the domestic.

Anyway, to each there own. I just don't want people to get misinformed. ANY car on the used market can be unreliable, and I'd doubt that domestic cars will be any better or worse than a Honda or Toyota. You just need to get lucky either way.

Just wanted to point out that import vs. domestic is simply only in name. IE: Honda Civics are made in Alliston Ontario as are plenty of other "imports". Generally however, resale value is typically a little higher with lower depreciation for "imports" down the line. But it's true that every manufacturer has problems. It really comes down to specific models and years if you want to maximize your reliability.

[bluejays]

Originally Posted by HitterD

100% agree

I have an 2003 Z24 myself (for now, I'm about to list it).

Great car, never had a problem with it, and it's got over 100,000 KM.

I think they are worth it, like you said, much less expensive for an equivalent vehicle IMO

...yeah, I was thinking about this car myself. The Sunfires and Cavaliers are nice for their prices. Right now, as I mentioned earlier, we have a Sebring, and an 02 with about $100,000 can probably be had for about $7,000. I'm open to anything although I am interested specifically in the Yaris and Element. I just don't know if either has reliability issues.

[HitterD]

Originally Posted by Hack&Lube

Just wanted to point out that import vs. domestic is simply only in name. IE: Honda Civics are made in Alliston Ontario as are plenty of other "imports". Generally however, resale value is typically a little higher with lower depreciation for "imports" down the line. But it's true that every manufacturer has problems. It really comes down to specific models and years if you want to maximize your reliability.

That's a good point, most "imports" will be manufactured in USA, Canada or Mexico anyway.

I'll note that even between different model and years, while some may be more reliable on the whole, you can still get stuck with a lemon. It's all luck. The only way you can really feel safe is with a warrenty, but the extended warrenties are overpriced IMO, but that's a different can of worms all together.

As for the depreciation, yes thats good for the seller, but as a buyer, I'd be more likely to steer clear of "imports" for that same reason, they cost more for a (roughly) equivalent vehicle.

[HitterD]

Originally Posted by fleury

...yeah, I was thinking about this car myself. The Sunfires and Cavaliers are nice for their prices. Right now, as I mentioned earlier, we have a Sebring, and an 02 with about $100,000 can probably be had for about $7,000. I'm open to anything although I am interested specifically in the Yaris and Element. I just don't know if either has reliability issues.

Some will, some won't. The reliability studies are based on tests on hundreds of the same car. Problem is, someone will give you an opinion based on their own experience, which is likely just a sample of 1 or 2.

My advice. Buy the car that you like in your price range, and hope that specific car is reliable. If so, great! If not, don't get discouraged with the manufacturer, because they all make bad cars form time to time.

Cars are a very risky investment of your money. It's too bad they we need the darn things os much!!

[Winsor_Pilates]

Imports keep their value better, but since you're looking used, want to save money and run it into the ground I'd look at domestics. The bang for your buck is not even close.

I've had 3 Pontiacs and all have been great with no real problems. I drive a 98 Sunfire now and it's great for me.
Compact, cheap on gas, reliable and a decent drive since it's a GT. It's only worth about 4 thousand now, but there's no way I could come close to having the same quality of car in an import at that price. It's valued at about the same as a 1990 acura or honda and I'd say it's twice the car.
Old imports are extremly overated.

[bluejays]

Originally Posted by HitterD

Some will, some won't. The reliability studies are based on tests on hundreds of the same car. Problem is, someone will give you an opinion based on their own experience, which is likely just a sample of 1 or 2.

My advice. Buy the car that you like in your price range, and hope that specific car is reliable. If so, great! If not, don't get discouraged with the manufacturer, because they all make bad cars form time to time.

Cars are a very risky investment of your money. It's too bad they we need the darn things os much!!

The thing is, consumer reports and stuff like that, show that some cars are more reliable than others. Certainly sometimes you'll be stuck with a POS, but I would like to know if those cars, among others, on the whole, if they are good cars or have had reliability issues. Why not get a used 93 Kia? Some can be crap, some won't be, but there's a good chance 90% will be garbage. I'd like to know about some cars that would have had less major problems in the past few years.

[Dion]

Originally Posted by fleury

... I'm open to anything although I am interested specifically in the Yaris and Element. I just don't know if either has reliability issues.

The Lemonaid guide will give you that information. IIRC the public library have his books in the reference section.