[Game Takes] Hawks 3 Flames 1

[Bingo]

Hawks 3 Flames 1

- Flames get 40 plus shots on goal
- Get down 3-0 to Chicago.
- Weegar breaks the shut out late

[Strange Brew]

How unusual is it the Flames have a player who is a +21 (Coleman) and a -23 (Huberdeau). Quite the extremes.

[traptor]

Originally Posted by Strange Brew

How unusual is it the Flames have a player who is a +21 (Coleman) and a -23 (Huberdeau). Quite the extremes.

Paints a pretty clear picture to me for whose pulling their weight and whose not, even more so when salaries come into the conversation.

He's either terrible or checked out. Not sure which is worse for us.

[GullFoss]

In all fairness, the player doing nothing for $10.5m, while also being -23 is helping the organization. He's our tank commander!

[FireGilbert]

+/- is not a great stat without context. For example Huberdeau was probably our best forward against Buffalo but ended up -2 because his goal was on the power play and he was on the ice trying to tie the game late when the empty netters went in.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by FireGilbert

+/- is not a great stat without context. For example Huberdeau was probably our best forward against Buffalo but ended up -2 because his goal was on the power play and he was on the ice trying to tie the game late when the empty netters went in.

Plus, as mediocre defensively as he is, he is probably the best defensive forward on his line on any given night. Sharangovich is not able to handle centre defensive duties (yet anyway) and Kuzmenko is a real defensive hole.

That said, if you look at Bingo’s game takes much, Huberdeau’s line is often on top in metrics.

[Strange Brew]

Huberdeau has been team worst in plus/minus from the start of the season. It is not a great stat, but neither he nor Coleman's numbers are due primarily to luck or linemates.

[cam_calderon]

Originally Posted by FireGilbert

+/- is not a great stat without context. For example Huberdeau was probably our best forward against Buffalo but ended up -2 because his goal was on the power play and he was on the ice trying to tie the game late when the empty netters went in.

How about his 44 points?

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by Strange Brew

Huberdeau has been team worst in plus/minus from the start of the season. It is not a great stat, but neither he nor Coleman's numbers are due primarily to luck or linemates.

It’s absolutely due to linemates. That’s how plus minus works. Almost nothing to do with individual play on the defensive side. Maybe offence. You can tell because the same player will have wild fluctuations year to year.

[Bingo]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

It’s absolutely due to linemates. That’s how plus minus works. Almost nothing to do with individual play on the defensive side. Maybe offence. You can tell because the same player will have wild fluctuations year to year.

It's a slippery slope.

Linemates are paramount for sure, but Backlund wouldn't do as well without Coleman as he would with say Huberdeau.

Huberdeau is the worst defensive forward on the team when it comes to xGA60.

But the offensive side of things have had Coleman with a heater all season. Pucks just go in.

He plays on a line that generates so his expected goals for are amazing.

There is little debate in my mind that Huberdeau is actually the better offensive player, but he plays on a team with very few finishers.

Either way I'd never use plus minus.

Stat should be eliminated in my mind.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by Bingo

It's a slippery slope.

Linemates are paramount for sure, but Backlund wouldn't do as well without Coleman as he would with say Huberdeau.

Huberdeau is the worst defensive forward on the team when it comes to xGA60.

But the offensive side of things have had Coleman with a heater all season. Pucks just go in.

He plays on a line that generates so his expected goals for are amazing.

There is little debate in my mind that Huberdeau is actually the better offensive player, but he plays on a team with very few finishers.

Either way I'd never use plus minus.

Stat should be eliminated in my mind.

An example of what I was saying is Backlund. 2017-18 he's -21. Next season +34. With almost identical offensive production. So did he suddenly learn to play defensive hockey? And did he then forget the next year when, with identical points, he sunk to +3?

[Bingo]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

An example of what I was saying is Backlund. 2017-18 he's -21. Next season +34. With almost identical offensive production. So did he suddenly learn to play defensive hockey? And did he then forget the next year when, with identical points, he sunk to +3?

Agreed.

xGF / xGA is more accurate because it takes goaltending out of it.

But it still doesn't isolate to the player.

[Strange Brew]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

It’s absolutely due to linemates. That’s how plus minus works. Almost nothing to do with individual play on the defensive side. Maybe offence. You can tell because the same player will have wild fluctuations year to year.

No the point is that the stark difference in plus/minus between the two players can be more attributed to performance than linemates.

As I said twice, it's not a great stat but it is representative of the difference between the two players. And Huberdeau is getting the most offensive zone starts of any regular on the team and one of the highest in the league. Unfortunately he doesn't have the results to show for it.

Backlund's swing in plus/minus is a fair point. But I don't believe that player performance is consistent from year to year, nor is team performance including goaltending.

[Bingo]

Originally Posted by Strange Brew

No the point is that the stark difference in plus/minus between the two players can be more attributed to performance than linemates.

As I said twice, it's not a great stat but it is representative of the difference between the two players. And Huberdeau is getting the most offensive zone starts of any regular on the team and one of the highest in the league. Unfortunately he doesn't have the results to show for it.

Backlund's swing in plus/minus is a fair point. But I don't believe that player performance is consistent from year to year, nor is team performance including goaltending.

And I agree with the premise.

I just don't think plus minus is the stat to prove the point.

But Coleman would have worse numbers across the board (plus minus / expected goals) playing with say Kadri, and Huberdeau would have better playing with Backlund.

But that isn't to say it's all Backlund. Coleman is twice the player (three times?) defensively.

[Strange Brew]

Originally Posted by Bingo

And I agree with the premise.

I just don't think plus minus is the stat to prove the point.

But Coleman would have worse numbers across the board (plus minus / expected goals) playing with say Kadri, and Huberdeau would have better playing with Backlund.

But that isn't to say it's all Backlund. Coleman is twice the player (three times?) defensively.

Agee with that.

And really I don't want to make it all about Huberdeau vs. Coleman. More to the point, Flames have had one line that has been excellent all year. It is reflected in all of their statistics. They all get credit, particularly Backlund and Coleman.

Huberdeau, no matter who he has been put with, just hasn't been good. And it shows up in mostly any number you look at.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by Strange Brew

Agee with that.

And really I don't want to make it all about Huberdeau vs. Coleman. More to the point, Flames have had one line that has been excellent all year. It is reflected in all of their statistics. They all get credit, particularly Backlund and Coleman.

Huberdeau, no matter who he has been put with, just hasn't been good. And it shows up in mostly any number you look at.

Well, except in the metrics Bingo posts. Huberdeau's line is usually pretty good. It's affected by zone starts I suspect. But Kadri's line is often really bad on the same metrics.

[Savvy27]

I just want the coaches to get Coronato away from Greer and Rooney. He does better with other players and I don't think it's good for his confidence to go out and struggle with players who consistently struggle.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by Savvy27

I just want the coaches to get Coronato away from Greer and Rooney. He does better with other players and I don't think it's good for his confidence to go out and struggle with players who consistently struggle.

The stats say he does the same no matter who's line he's on. He has the same points with Greer and Rooney as with any other line. Yet he's spent twice as much time with Kadri/Zary and Backlund/Coleman and also more time with Huberdeau/Sharangovich.

https://frozenpool.dobbersports.com/.../matt-coronato

[GullFoss]

Originally Posted by cam_calderon

How about his 44 points?

He got a PP goal, so ignore the season stat line and just look at the one game.

[Savvy27]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

The stats say he does the same no matter who's line he's on. He has the same points with Greer and Rooney as with any other line. Yet he's spent twice as much time with Kadri/Zary and Backlund/Coleman and also more time with Huberdeau/Sharangovich.

https://frozenpool.dobbersports.com/.../matt-coronato

That's pretty misleading.

Coleman - Backlund - Coronato (naturalstattrick.com)
TOI: 40:09
CF%: 56.63
xGF%: 58.80
GF%: 20.00
PDO: 0.845

Huberdeau - Kadri - Coronato
TOI: 14:46
CF%: 59.26
xGF%: 54.54
GF%: 100.00
PDO: 1.167

Greer - Rooney - Coronato
TOI: 17:30
CF%: 35.00
xGF%: 45.24
GF%: 50.00
PDO: 1.060

Huberdeau - Sharangovich - Coronato
TOI: 27:34
CF%: 38:36
xGF%: 39.29
GF%: 40.00
PDO: 0.982

I'd like to see him play with Zary and Pospisil personally. He hasn't played with Pospisil but done okay with Zary:
TOI: 46:54
CF%: 46.24
xGF%: 54.51
GF%: 50.00
PDO: 0.997

It seems to me that he's capable of playing at a level where his line controls more of the play and generates more offensive chances when he is playing with a stronger center.