RIP Chris Simon

[Jiri Hrdina]

This doesn't have to be a career decision. Just remove it from the game completely and then it no longer is a career decision. It is an easy thing to solve for. Just do it.
It's going to happen at some point. That's inevitable.
So do it now.

[Cali Panthers Fan]

Originally Posted by Jay Random

If you DON'T drive that vehicle negligently, you can still end someone's life prematurely, including your own. How many fatal accidents actually result in manslaughter charges? A tiny minority.

You're the one with the red herring here.

If one follows the rules of the road strictly, drives with awareness of the road conditions and others (instead of negligence to their surroundings) how in the hell could they cause an accident that would end a life? If it did occur, it would be a shockingly low number of occurrences. The claim about driving being dangerous to your health is about negligence and human error.

I didn't present the original argument, i'm just countering the logical fallacy of it. It has ZERO to do with this topic.

[Jay Random]

Originally Posted by Cali Panthers Fan

If one follows the rules of the road strictly, drives with awareness of the road conditions and others (instead of negligence to their surroundings) how in the hell could they cause an accident that would end a life? If it did occur, it would be a shockingly low number of occurrences. The claim about driving being dangerous to your health is about negligence and human error.

Have you ever driven in a Canadian winter? NO degree of awareness and care will protect you from all possibility of accidents in those conditions.

[KelVarnsen]

[cam_calderon]

The point is about risk. Matt Rempe has obviously accepted the tradeoff between health impacts and money and fame. He is a grown man who should have the agency to make that decision, and thankfully as things stand, he does.

I don't know that eliminating jobs for players of Rempe's ilk is something the PA would actually be pushing for.

[Cali Panthers Fan]

Originally Posted by Jay Random

Have you ever driven in a Canadian winter? NO degree of awareness and care will protect you from all possibility of accidents in those conditions.

Yes, but those are particularly extreme conditions, and most people around the world don't drive in those conditions. Negligence and human error account for most collisions.

Again...severely off topic now. This is irrelevant to the NHL dealing with fighting.

[PepsiFree]

As much as someone wants to pretend otherwise, this has nothing to do with setting an age limit for decision making. The connection between young adulthood and poor decision making was only brought up to counter the point that because he’s legally an adult at 21 then everyone should think it completely acceptable.

The issue, as pointed out, is that the decision is even on the table in the first place. There is financial incentive to fight, so the solution has to have a financial component. Suspend players for 5-10 games for every fight, and you’ll see it gone in no time. The NHL has a responsibility to protect its players and it isn’t doing that sufficiently, regardless of what anyone wants to argue otherwise.

In terms of “where is the line,” well, it’s a dumb point to begin with because there’s nothing that suggests we need to predetermine where the eventual line is going to be before we do anything. It’s just another method of pathetic waving away of the problem. We can start by removing things that are already penalties and not part of the game. How about that?

[Cali Panthers Fan]

Originally Posted by cam_calderon

The point is about risk. Matt Rempe has obviously accepted the tradeoff between health impacts and money and fame. He is a grown man who should have the agency to make that decision, and thankfully as things stand, he does.

I don't know that eliminating jobs for players of Rempe's ilk is something the PA would actually be pushing for.

I strongly disagree. If Rempe's only role is to run around on the ice injuring guys with hits and then fighting other guys, then that's a safety issue for many players, some of which make a ton of money as high skill players. If their earning potential is shortened because of a scrub like Rempe, you better believe they are okay with eliminating that from the game.

[PepsiFree]

Originally Posted by cam_calderon

The point is about risk. Matt Rempe has obviously accepted the tradeoff between health impacts and money and fame. He is a grown man who should have the agency to make that decision, and thankfully as things stand, he does.

I don't know that eliminating jobs for players of Rempe's ilk is something the PA would actually be pushing for.

It’s tough to know whether you’re purposely being disingenuous or whether you actually don’t understand the issue. You can use your stick as a weapon in the NHL. Nor can you attack a ref. It’s not “taking away agency” to ban things that harm people, so there’s no reason to play stupid about it.

For every Rempe that doesn’t have a job, there are 100s of players in the AHL waiting for their opportunity to earn a job. Why would the PA care whether a fighter gets the job or not?

[PeteMoss]

Originally Posted by Cali Panthers Fan

I strongly disagree. If Rempe's only role is to run around on the ice injuring guys with hits and then fighting other guys, then that's a safety issue for many players, some of which make a ton of money as high skill players. If their earning potential is shortened because of a scrub like Rempe, you better believe they are okay with eliminating that from the game.

Obviously Rempe's role is not to injury guys. He's just not that good at hockey so he's injuring people. Tons of fighters don't hurt guys left and right.

[Igottago]

Originally Posted by cam_calderon

The point is about risk. Matt Rempe has obviously accepted the tradeoff between health impacts and money and fame. He is a grown man who should have the agency to make that decision, and thankfully as things stand, he does.

I don't know that eliminating jobs for players of Rempe's ilk is something the PA would actually be pushing for.

I think the PA would probably be able to think of the longer term impacts to their players, who are obviously not doing well after engaging in careers as fighters. The evidence is abundant.
Its long past due to get fighting out of the game.

[cam_calderon]

Originally Posted by PepsiFree

The NHL has a responsibility to protect its players and it isn’t doing that sufficiently, regardless of what anyone wants to argue otherwise.

You're presenting your worthless opinion as objective fact. Don't do that.

[Jay Random]

Originally Posted by Cali Panthers Fan

Yes, but those are particularly extreme conditions, and most people around the world don't drive in those conditions. Negligence and human error account for most collisions.

Asserted without evidence, and in any case, irrelevant.

Should driving in Canada in the winter (or in any other cold country) be outlawed? How about driving in mountainous terrain, which is also inherently dangerous? Should we outlaw driving on residential streets, because children sometimes run out in the road in front of cars and get killed through no fault of the driver's? Should we outlaw driving in dense urban areas, because pedestrians crossing the street are at risk? Should Calgary shut down its LRT system, because it has a history of killing pedestrians at grade crossings?

Once you have opened this can of worms, there is no end of it. You want to go there, but you don't want to address any questions except the one you think gives you the answer you prefer.

Again...severely off topic now. This is irrelevant to the NHL dealing with fighting.

Actually, it isn't. This issue touches on huge questions of personal responsibility and autonomy, which one side does not wish to acknowledge – perhaps out of laziness, perhaps because some people on that side are opposed to personal responsibility and autonomy.

[PepsiFree]

Originally Posted by cam_calderon

You're presenting your worthless opinion as objective fact. Don't do that.

That’s never stopped you.

[Jay Random]

Originally Posted by PepsiFree

As much as someone wants to pretend otherwise, this has nothing to do with setting an age limit for decision making. The connection between young adulthood and poor decision making was only brought up to counter the point that because he’s legally an adult at 21 then everyone should think it completely acceptable.

That wasn't the point being made. But if you have to go there to defend your position, your position is dangerously weak.

[Jay Random]

Originally Posted by PepsiFree

It’s tough to know whether you’re purposely being disingenuous or whether you actually don’t understand the issue. You can use your stick as a weapon in the NHL. Nor can you attack a ref. It’s not “taking away agency” to ban things that harm people, so there’s no reason to play stupid about it.

For every Rempe that doesn’t have a job, there are 100s of players in the AHL waiting for their opportunity to earn a job. Why would the PA care whether a fighter gets the job or not?

Hockey itself harms people. Are you going to ban the sport entirely?

[SweepToTheCup]

Originally Posted by Jiri Hrdina

This doesn't have to be a career decision. Just remove it from the game completely and then it no longer is a career decision. It is an easy thing to solve for. Just do it.
It's going to happen at some point. That's inevitable.
So do it now.

When I learned of Derek Boogaard's death the first thing I thought about was the Dome (myself included) going wild as he was slumped against the boards after taking a beating from Eric Goddard. Not sure it does any good but I've tried to consciously look away for almost every fight since.

Who Killed Davey Moore?

Get rid of it.

[Jiri Hrdina]

Originally Posted by cam_calderon

The point is about risk. Matt Rempe has obviously accepted the tradeoff between health impacts and money and fame. He is a grown man who should have the agency to make that decision, and thankfully as things stand, he does.

I don't know that eliminating jobs for players of Rempe's ilk is something the PA would actually be pushing for.

Maybe the PA should be worried about members of their association dying at very young ages.

[cam_calderon]

The City of Calgary has a responsibility to protect its citizens. There are too many fatal car crashes in Calgary, so let's ban cars.

[PepsiFree]

Originally Posted by Jay Random

Hockey itself harms people. Are you going to ban the sport entirely?

Well, it doesn’t really, unless your definition of hockey is strictly confined to hitting and fighting, in which case the vast majority of hockey players young and old around the world don’t play hockey, I guess.

Are you able to talk about the topic at hand or is your position so weak that you need to divert to these extreme leaps to feel like you’re even making one that anyone can’t dismiss outright?