Friedman: LTIR may be addressed in next CBA

[butterfly]

Originally Posted by FanIn80

I don't know why you're using a Forbes valuation list to argue... actually, I'm not even sure what point you're trying to argue. The proper metric to use is "wealthy owners who are willing to spend out of pocket to buy a Stanley Cup."

Not every single season for every single team is about making as much money as you can. When you have a strong enough team to be considered a contender at the deadline, kicking in a few exrtra $$$ when you know there's no cap in the playoffs can be a sound investment. Deep run = more playoff tickets = more merch sales = more consession sales = more media coverage = more interest from casuals = more season tickets.

dissentowner claimed that "big money teams" were using this tactic at the expense of small market teams, when it's actually mid-market teams who are actually doing it. At least, according to that list.

As for your second paragraph, I totally agree.

Originally Posted by FanIn80

The cap is $83.5M. There are 14 teams above that right now, but 10 of them are at least still in the 80s.

The 4 teams above $90M are Toronto, Tampa, Vegas and Colorado. Toronto was in the $100M range going into last year's playoffs, and they're at $98M this year. Tampa's at $94M and everyone and their dog knows Sergachev will be back for the playoffs (if they make it). Vegas... first they used LTIR to buy an injured Eichel, now they did it again to buy an injured Hertl (who will be back with Stone in time for Game 1). Landeskog's gonna be back for Colorado (it's in the news days after they bumped their roster up to $91M at the deadline).

At some point it has to start sinking in with more people that it's always the same teams doing this.

Three of those four $90M+ teams have something in common recently. I'd be trying to learn from them instead of chiding them.

I guess Toronto will be accused of "cheating" too. Then if there are 10 other teams above the cap, and add Edmonton and Vancouver to the mix, I don't think there will be too many people in this thread who enjoy the playoffs.

[dissentowner]

Omg, I can't even be bothered anymore. Wow.

[EldrickOnIce]

Originally Posted by dissentowner

Omg, I can't even be bothered anymore. Wow.

Bothered with what?
It's simple to fix. Adopt Pepsi's plan. Until then, good on teams taking advantage of the current system, within the rules, and winning championships.

[GioforPM]

He means not bothered trying to convince someone that thinks this is all fine and dandy.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by butterfly

It's like the IL in baseball, to make sure you can't just call up another player to the active roster for a one or two game problem.

I don't know what the SRP pool is, sorry.

That’s not what it’s for at all. Again, if there’s no reason to curb LTIR manipulation there’s really no reason to have a salary cap at all.

[Mr.Coffee]

Exactly. Manipulating the salary cap and finding loop holes is all about circumventing the spirit and intent of it. And yes, it is about trying to create an even playing field. Like, literally that’s what it was for. Cost certainty and ensuring every team had the same budget. If you can go create an all star team with a LTIR loophole it literally is working around the fairness of it. Are we saying everyone can just do this then? Then what’s the point of a cap?

And yes, it is in the league’s best interest to create fairness. Otherwise why not just start the season with the big market teams getting a 40 point advantage when the season starts to ensure they all make playoffs? So yes some things that are unfair slide into the absurdly stupid, like this LTIR nonsense.

Such an easy thing to abuse.

[butterfly]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

That’s not what it’s for at all. Again, if there’s no reason to curb LTIR manipulation there’s really no reason to have a salary cap at all.

That the teams bellyaching about this now didn't figure out this would happen when they agreed to the CBA is hilarious to me. Renegotiate the CBA when it's up in September 2026. I'm sure the players will totally love the idea.

Until then, imagine being outraged by 14 teams using LTIR to go over the cap and making excuses for why their Cup wins don't count. See you in 2026-27 when there's sure to be fairness for all.

[Mr.Coffee]

Sorry, what is your argument? It isn’t clear to me. That this isn’t a problem?

[FlamesAddiction]

It's not really a "big market vs. small market" issue. Even small market teams have filthy rich owner that could spend real money way above the cap to game the LTIR system.

I personally don't like the way LTIR works when the playoff comes. It seems to take some of the fairness out of it. To be honest though, it's far from the biggest issue that should be talked about in the next CBA (ahem, trade and movement clauses).

[butterfly]

Originally Posted by Mr.Coffee

Sorry, what is your argument? It isn’t clear to me. That this isn’t a problem?

It's a suboptimal arrangement at best, but it's not cheating.

Originally Posted by PepsiFree

The simplest solution is just to declare that your total on-ice salary, prorated to an 82 game season, can’t exceed the cap in any individual game, playoff or otherwise.

EDIT: similar to IronMaiden above, but make it so that if a team like Vegas wants to pick up an extra 6M player to cover for a 6M player on LTIR and that LTIR player returns in the playoffs, then they have the option of playing either of them throughout the playoffs, but wouldn’t be able to play both in one game (unless they scratch 6M elsewhere).

This is a great way to 'solve' it.

Until then, you'd be foolish to not do what these 14 teams are doing, and even more foolish to complain about it when you had ample opportunity to review the current CBA prior to its agreement and only now figured out that this could be possible.

[dino7c]

Originally Posted by EldrickOnIce

Bothered with what?
It's simple to fix. Adopt Pepsi's plan. Until then, good on teams taking advantage of the current system, within the rules, and winning championships.

yeah whatever but lets not pretend they aren't totally fudging return timelines
I am all for it if they beat the Oilers

It does need to be fixed though IMO

[Scroopy Noopers]

Originally Posted by dino7c

yeah whatever but lets not pretend they aren't totally fudging return timelines
I am all for it if they beat the Oilers

It does need to be fixed though IMO

I find it hard to believe that players are voluntarily sitting out while feeling 100%. It’s far more likely they push it to be ready for game 1.

There isn’t a blood test that says “hey this guy is fine!”

[Mean Mr. Mustard]

Originally Posted by Scroopy Noopers

I find it hard to believe that players are voluntarily sitting out while feeling 100%. It’s far more likely they push it to be ready for game 1.

There isn’t a blood test that says “hey this guy is fine!”

I find it hard to believe that someone could see it happen year after year and still think that the return timelines aren't being fudged. Kucherov is the most blatant example where he didn't just play okay but he put up 32 points in the playoffs. As it keeps happening with teams loading up for the playoffs with star players having injuries that hold them out until game 1 of the playoffs... It is within the rules but goes against the spirit of those rules.

[Scroopy Noopers]

Originally Posted by Mean Mr. Mustard

I find it hard to believe that someone could see it happen year after year and still think that the return timelines aren't being fudged. Kucherov is the most blatant example where he didn't just play okay but he put up 32 points in the playoffs. As it keeps happening with teams loading up for the playoffs with star players having injuries that hold them out until game 1 of the playoffs... It is within the rules but goes against the spirit of those rules.

The game is essentially impossible to play without minor injuries. Guys play all playoff with minor to significant injuries. They don’t want to come back 3 games early and play hurt, when they can play hurt game 1 of the playoffs instead.


I think the perfect black and white answer to this is an unobtainable goal, and the fan expectations around injuries are basically fantasy.

[Scroopy Noopers]

Are people really looking for “can you skate? Then you’re fine!” Because that’s basically Monahan. Should he had been playing? Docs said he could, he said he could, fans say he never should have.

[EldrickOnIce]

Ways of circumventing or manipulating the cap have been around since there was a cap. Those stupid front loaded contracts, like Luongo in Vancouver. And Hossa's was worse. And that was fixed. And this will be too, and it needs to be. It's just incorrect to label it cheating when it's clearly not violating the current no good rules. Spirit of the rules be damned.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by butterfly

That the teams bellyaching about this now didn't figure out this would happen when they agreed to the CBA is hilarious to me. Renegotiate the CBA when it's up in September 2026. I'm sure the players will totally love the idea.

Until then, imagine being outraged by 14 teams using LTIR to go over the cap and making excuses for why their Cup wins don't count. See you in 2026-27 when there's sure to be fairness for all.

I thought no teams were concerned about this - only fans?

The thing is that while every team could theoretically play the game, not too many teams actually can attract the players to take them so far over the cap that LTIR manipulation is necessary. The Flames had a guy out all last year and didn't use LTIR (or any other cap measures) because they didn't need to - they don't have a high enough payroll.

The other thing is that many teams aren't using LTIR relief to get a repolacement player. They are just using it to up their payroll as happened in TB, or, in Vegas' case with Hertl, to add a player solely for the POs.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by EldrickOnIce

Ways of circumventing or manipulating the cap have been around since there was a cap. Those stupid front loaded contracts, like Luongo in Vancouver. And Hossa's was worse. And that was fixed. And this will be too, and it needs to be. It's just incorrect to label it cheating when it's clearly not violating the current no good rules. Spirit of the rules be damned.

Most people are not saying it's cheating - they are syaing that loopholes could be closed, or narrowed. And just because a solution is not perfect doesn't mean you throw out "better".

[PeteMoss]

Originally Posted by SuperMatt18

This is the solution IMO.

And it's funny if you look at Vegas...

Eichel, Stone, Hertl, Karlsson, Marchessault, Barbashev, Roy, Mantha, Stephenson, Howden, Amadio, Cotter = $53.7M

Pietrangelo, Theodore, McNabb, Whitecloud, Hague, Hanifin = $23.25M

Hill, Thompson: $5.7M

Total= $83.15M

For all the noise about Vegas cheating their best dressed roster come playoff time actually is still under the Salary Cap. And it was the same thing last year.

It allows them to build depth and squeeze these guys in, but it's easy to build a 20 man roster with most of their best players that is still below the cap of $83.5M.

You can't dress Carrier / Kolesar and have to dress Cotter, and Martinez can't play (not sure he would anyways with those other 6), but not like they have to make any really tough decisions.

And since they are in LTIR all season long most of the time they can't accrue cap space like another team can, any team can be over the cap in the playoffs if they use their cap accrual space wisely...not just LTIR teams.

This could work for the playoffs, but for the regular season it wouldn't work because you are essentially allowing teams to bury a cap hit by not dressing him. Last year's Flames could have picked up an extra 5 million (or whatever we had on the cap for the guy) by not dressing Lucic all year.

[Strange Brew]

I have always been in favor of the plan that whatever lineup you ice in the playoff needs to be cap compliant.

But I suppose you could attack it from a different angle too. What is problematic is when players are not medically cleared to play for an extended period during a season but then are medically Ok to play at the start of the playoffs.

If you are missing 30, 40, 80 games but then are OK at the start of the playoffs? It's pretty clear players in that scenario are being parked on LTIR at the end of the regular season since the team is not able to be cap compliant with them in the lineup.

In the NFL injured players count against the cap. I would be Ok with that frankly. Exceptions can be made for career ending injuries that extend beyond a season.