Alberta Politics & Government Thread 3.0

[Lubicon]

Originally Posted by Locke

You know. I cant pretend to know a lot about the 'Take Back Alberta' movement because I think its silly.

But I get it the impression its comprised largely of wealthy old men who made bank when Oil was high? I've run into a lot of these guys and some of them are incredibly intelligent and well educated.

So now they need to 'Take Back Alberta?' Take it back from Whom? And if they say 'The Feds' there is a swift kick to the balls imminently incoming.

I think there's significant number of supporters who are largely non college educated and a majority are male. Found more in rural areas and/or outside the two major cities.

It would be similar to MAGA supporters in the US

[Ozy_Flame]

I wonder if his announcement is not for the NDP. I mean it would stand to reason the only way he would run for the NDP is if they dropped the federal membership requirements, and that he would toe the line / change the entrenched positions of the given party.

He's a centrist much like Rachel Notley was. But he's also a maverick that could get them over the hurdle.

If he doesn't run for the NDP, then I would be more than happy to see him endorse one of the candidates (hopefully Pancholi), or start a new centrist party clean of all the other centrist stank in this province. The latter is far more unlikely though.

[iggy_oi]

I inclined to think that if other candidates in the leadership race are already attacking him it’s probably already known to them that he will be running.

[PsYcNeT]

Originally Posted by belsarius

Well this is an enlightening discussion showing why FPTP is so terrible. As an actual NDPer (as opposed to anti-UCPers) I am fully behind Ganley on this, Nenshi is not really a part of the NDP group and braintrust so for him to parachute in is kind of a slap in the face.

What I am seeing is a bunch of people annoyed at the Conservatives in this province and wanting a change, but they want the other party to bend to their needs. For me, that's not what this should be about at all. Politics has devolved into a team sport about who can "win elections". Nobody seems to really care about the ANDP party, they just want someone to stop the UCP. Change the name, change the leader, change the direction, change the focus.

Piss off and leave my party alone. If you don't agree with their stances, then don't vote for them, vote for someone you believe in, don't change my party into something you want simply because you don't like the UCP.

And this is where the FPTP is causing all of the issues. The "centrist" people feel left out and want someone to vote for. Fine, then Nenshi should go run for the Alberta Party and create that space, not steal the base from a party. Will that take votes away from the NDP, split the rest and cause the UCP to win. Probably, but that's how it should work.

I don't vote for a side to win at all costs, I vote for the party whose policies and ideologies I support and identify with. And to be honest, the last couple years of the NDP in power and their campaigning since has pushed me farther from them than anything else. They settled into a nice centre, if not centre-right position to get votes, but it still wasn't enough. Sold their soul for another chance to govern and lost.

So you don't like the left ideals? Fine, then go find a new party to vote for, but this push to change the colour, change the name, basically destroy the NDP in this province simply to win an election pisses me off. Some of us have voted for the NDP since they were a 1 person caucus. Not because we believed we could win the government, but because we wanted someone in the legislature that would be our voice.

It's not like Nenshi is some centre-right Biden equivalent with baggage/murderous intent; he's always been a centre-left pragmatist with strong cache in the province.

A Nenshi-led NDP isn't going to dramatically change the focus and stances of the party provincially, but it certainly will get more done.

Being a giant baby (not you, Team Ganley) who cares more about purity testing than actually viably forming government is disappointing at best and hilariously self-defeating at worst.

[Canadianman]

Originally Posted by belsarius

Well this is an enlightening discussion showing why FPTP is so terrible. As an actual NDPer (as opposed to anti-UCPers) I am fully behind Ganley on this, Nenshi is not really a part of the NDP group and braintrust so for him to parachute in is kind of a slap in the face.

What I am seeing is a bunch of people annoyed at the Conservatives in this province and wanting a change, but they want the other party to bend to their needs. For me, that's not what this should be about at all. Politics has devolved into a team sport about who can "win elections". Nobody seems to really care about the ANDP party, they just want someone to stop the UCP. Change the name, change the leader, change the direction, change the focus.

Piss off and leave my party alone. If you don't agree with their stances, then don't vote for them, vote for someone you believe in, don't change my party into something you want simply because you don't like the UCP.

And this is where the FPTP is causing all of the issues. The "centrist" people feel left out and want someone to vote for. Fine, then Nenshi should go run for the Alberta Party and create that space, not steal the base from a party. Will that take votes away from the NDP, split the rest and cause the UCP to win. Probably, but that's how it should work.

I don't vote for a side to win at all costs, I vote for the party whose policies and ideologies I support and identify with. And to be honest, the last couple years of the NDP in power and their campaigning since has pushed me farther from them than anything else. They settled into a nice centre, if not centre-right position to get votes, but it still wasn't enough. Sold their soul for another chance to govern and lost.

So you don't like the left ideals? Fine, then go find a new party to vote for, but this push to change the colour, change the name, basically destroy the NDP in this province simply to win an election pisses me off. Some of us have voted for the NDP since they were a 1 person caucus. Not because we believed we could win the government, but because we wanted someone in the legislature that would be our voice.

I understand this mentality, but it would result in the UCP continuing to win elections.


I guess you will have to decide what is more important to you.

[Locke]

Originally Posted by belsarius

Well this is an enlightening discussion showing why FPTP is so terrible. As an actual NDPer (as opposed to anti-UCPers) I am fully behind Ganley on this, Nenshi is not really a part of the NDP group and braintrust so for him to parachute in is kind of a slap in the face.

What I am seeing is a bunch of people annoyed at the Conservatives in this province and wanting a change, but they want the other party to bend to their needs. For me, that's not what this should be about at all. Politics has devolved into a team sport about who can "win elections". Nobody seems to really care about the ANDP party, they just want someone to stop the UCP. Change the name, change the leader, change the direction, change the focus.

Piss off and leave my party alone. If you don't agree with their stances, then don't vote for them, vote for someone you believe in, don't change my party into something you want simply because you don't like the UCP.

And this is where the FPTP is causing all of the issues. The "centrist" people feel left out and want someone to vote for. Fine, then Nenshi should go run for the Alberta Party and create that space, not steal the base from a party. Will that take votes away from the NDP, split the rest and cause the UCP to win. Probably, but that's how it should work.

I don't vote for a side to win at all costs, I vote for the party whose policies and ideologies I support and identify with. And to be honest, the last couple years of the NDP in power and their campaigning since has pushed me farther from them than anything else. They settled into a nice centre, if not centre-right position to get votes, but it still wasn't enough. Sold their soul for another chance to govern and lost.

So you don't like the left ideals? Fine, then go find a new party to vote for, but this push to change the colour, change the name, basically destroy the NDP in this province simply to win an election pisses me off. Some of us have voted for the NDP since they were a 1 person caucus. Not because we believed we could win the government, but because we wanted someone in the legislature that would be our voice.

I understand and appreciate your concerns, but heres another issue.

I couldnt pick Ganley out of a Police Lineup.

I know exactly who Naheed Nenshi is and what he stands for and have actually voted for him civically in the past.

Who do you think is going to haul the Team over the hump?

Who is going to win Calgary?

[Hemi-Cuda]

Originally Posted by belsarius

Well this is an enlightening discussion showing why FPTP is so terrible. As an actual NDPer (as opposed to anti-UCPers) I am fully behind Ganley on this, Nenshi is not really a part of the NDP group and braintrust so for him to parachute in is kind of a slap in the face.

What I am seeing is a bunch of people annoyed at the Conservatives in this province and wanting a change, but they want the other party to bend to their needs. For me, that's not what this should be about at all. Politics has devolved into a team sport about who can "win elections". Nobody seems to really care about the ANDP party, they just want someone to stop the UCP. Change the name, change the leader, change the direction, change the focus.

Piss off and leave my party alone. If you don't agree with their stances, then don't vote for them, vote for someone you believe in, don't change my party into something you want simply because you don't like the UCP.

And this is where the FPTP is causing all of the issues. The "centrist" people feel left out and want someone to vote for. Fine, then Nenshi should go run for the Alberta Party and create that space, not steal the base from a party. Will that take votes away from the NDP, split the rest and cause the UCP to win. Probably, but that's how it should work.

I don't vote for a side to win at all costs, I vote for the party whose policies and ideologies I support and identify with. And to be honest, the last couple years of the NDP in power and their campaigning since has pushed me farther from them than anything else. They settled into a nice centre, if not centre-right position to get votes, but it still wasn't enough. Sold their soul for another chance to govern and lost.

So you don't like the left ideals? Fine, then go find a new party to vote for, but this push to change the colour, change the name, basically destroy the NDP in this province simply to win an election pisses me off. Some of us have voted for the NDP since they were a 1 person caucus. Not because we believed we could win the government, but because we wanted someone in the legislature that would be our voice.

So you'd prefer the UCP stay in power indefinitely just so you can feel a bit better about who you vote for? An NDP purity test is more important than fixing the UCP destruction being wrought on our province?

[powderjunkie]

Originally Posted by D as in David

McDavid has won the Hart trophy and how many Stanley Cups?

The key thing here is he convinced a bunch of idiots to vote for him

[Bigtime]

Had to do it:

[GGG]

I’m going to buy an NDP membership for the first time ever.

In a FTFP system there is incentive to only have 2 parties. In that environment there should be open primaries. This allows the middle rather than the extremes to set electoral policy.


I also think the popularity of the NDP is from the UCP abandoning the middle. The NDP has also shifted hard towards the center. They are pro pipeline and pro responsible development of oil and gas. Notley made the shift to abandon the environmental wing of the party.

The last election policy of the NDP was the mythical socially liberal fiscally conservative plan as you could practically get. My vote will be to select a leader that will not backslide

The NDP hasn’t been the NDP since their second year in government.

[nik-]

political hipsters don't want their favourite band to become popular

[Muta]

Originally Posted by GGG

I’m going to buy an NDP membership for the first time ever.

In a FTFP system there is incentive to only have 2 parties. In that environment there should be open primaries. This allows the middle rather than the extremes to set electoral policy.


I also think the popularity of the NDP is from the UCP abandoning the middle. The NDP has also shifted hard towards the center. They are pro pipeline and pro responsible development of oil and gas. Notley made the shift to abandon the environmental wing of the party.

The last election policy of the NDP was the mythical socially liberal fiscally conservative plan as you could practically get. My vote will be to select a leader that will not backslide

The NDP hasn’t been the NDP since their second year in government.

100%. Now if only the rest of the tunnel-vision conservatives saw this. Many of them (including my own family) just can't get over the color orange, or they can't recognize that the UCP isn't the same as the PCs. I'd bring up with them the the UCP is just the Wildrose Party, and they would try and find ways to end the conversation and ignore.

[Manhattanboy]

Maybe the wrong thread but does anyone know if the UCP has any plans to legalize sports betting in Alberta (like Ontario)?

[PsYcNeT]

Originally Posted by Manhattanboy

Maybe the wrong thread but does anyone know if the UCP has any plans to legalize sports betting in Alberta (like Ontario)?

This sounds ungodly and not something David Parker would approve of.

[belsarius]

Originally Posted by PsYcNeT

It's not like Nenshi is some centre-right Biden equivalent with baggage/murderous intent; he's always been a centre-left pragmatist with strong cache in the province.

A Nenshi-led NDP isn't going to dramatically change the focus and stances of the party provincially, but it certainly will get more done.

Being a giant baby (not you, Team Ganley) who cares more about purity testing than actually viably forming government is disappointing at best and hilariously self-defeating at worst.

That's true, but I already think the focus and stance of the party has changed dramatically since 2015. There has been a lot of giving up on ideals to appease the masses. There has been backing down on stances and a very real shift towards conservative politics. Nenshi won't make a big tip, but it will be another gradual shift. You add that to an identity change, then you aren't asking if the ANDP will beat the UCP, you are wanting a totally different party instead.

Originally Posted by Canadianman

I understand this mentality, but it would result in the UCP continuing to win elections.


I guess you will have to decide what is more important to you.

This is the mindset that worries me. It is exactly how the Reform party gained power, how the Wildrose gained power and how the Tea Party gained power. People willing to suspend their own beliefs and ideals just to win.

I get what you are saying, but if the UCP was so terrible for Alberta, then a majority of Albertans would go against them, even if it was a new PC type party... which is what it seems like what is trying to happen to the NDP.

I'm judging the system itself who put us in this position to have to vote for someone to represent us, who doesn't actually represent us, because its better than the one alternative.

Originally Posted by Locke

I understand and appreciate your concerns, but heres another issue.

I couldnt pick Ganley out of a Police Lineup.

I know exactly who Naheed Nenshi is and what he stands for and have actually voted for him civically in the past.

Who do you think is going to haul the Team over the hump?

Who is going to win Calgary?

Absolutely all true. But at what point do you say, this isn't the same party anymore, this is something completely different. I feel like a PC supporter when Kenney came to power. He sold the party off to the Wildrose to win an election because of how dangerous the NDP were to Alberta.

Now the NDP supporters are being asked to do the exact same thing for the exact same reason. I don't want to support a party who will win an election but only represent me in a very small way. Its the same as asking me to vote for the Liberals federally, no I really don't agree with much they do, but its better than the alternative.

Originally Posted by Hemi-Cuda

So you'd prefer the UCP stay in power indefinitely just so you can feel a bit better about who you vote for? An NDP purity test is more important than fixing the UCP destruction being wrought on our province?

I believe Democracy is voting for someone who will represent your interests. FPTP has taken that away and perverted it into an all or nothing game. And what that has done, is taken the party I support and forced it to change to win, not because the base supporters believe in it.

If the UCP were that bad, then people will vote them out. The province needs a centre-right option back. I just don't like that it is sacrificing my party to do it. I feel as abandoned as a voter, and its even worse than not having a party to vote for, its having that party then having it ripped away.

Originally Posted by nik-

political hipsters don't want their favourite band to become popular

You don't have to be a hipster to not like your band selling out, even if it is for a good cause.


I get it, the UCP are bad, like Republican party bad, for this province (in my opinion). But what I am seeing in the discussions is not just how can the NDP beat the UCP, they've already shown they can't. The discussion is now:

- Change the name
- Change the colours
- Change the leader
- Change the focus

This isn't making the NDP more popular to get more votes, it is replacing the NDP with a bigger tent party.

So yes, I understand all of the points, and they are damned good ones, and pragmatically they make sense if the end goal is simply to oust the UCP. I just wanted to interject into the conversation a perspective of someone who is a full lefty, who supports the NDP, both in Alberta and Federally, and how all the talk of changing the party reflects on me.

[Locke]

Change the colour to Purple.

Change the logo to a purple Jolly Roger.

Nenshi must wear a Pirate's do-rag and get a gold hoop ear-ring for all public addresses and speeches.

I'd be first in line to vote.

[PepsiFree]

I’ve been called a socialist (I am) and a communist more than most on this board and support the NDP fully but I would still support the ANDP with Nenshi at the helm and even with a name/colour/focus change. We have to adapt and let the party go a little bit, and just hang on to the things that actually matter.

There will be a time when having a far left party pushing for change makes sense again. It just isn’t right now. Which sucks, but it’s reality in Alberta.

[CliffFletcher]

I don’t know that it’s ideological purity that has put NDP loyalists’ noses out of joint so much as the fact Nenshi has never been active in the party.

To most of the voting public, a party is just a brand that gets slapped on candidates. But to party organizers and candidates, it’s an organization that they pour blood, sweat, and tears into. They’ve paid their dues raising funds, holding endless meetings in community halls, crafting policy, knocking on doors, and doing the grunt-work of operating a party. For years. Sometimes decades.

In that light, it’s understandable that the prospect of an outsider stepping in and becoming the head of the whole thing a year or two before an election rankles.

[iggy_oi]

Originally Posted by PsYcNeT

This sounds ungodly and not something David Parker would approve of.

Hypocrisy is his calling card so I wouldn’t worry about that sort of thing deterring him.

[Locke]

We could be the Purple Pirate Province!

And then we sail the Saskatchewan river!