2023/2024 Trade Rumors and Speculation Thread

[konradical]

We are not getting Stankoven from any Dallas trade sorry guys

Bourque or Bischell are probably available (especially as a package Tanev and Hanifin) no way is stankoven available.

would you trade a 1st and coronato for hanifin if you were in their position? probably not

[boogerz]

Originally Posted by butterfly

Oh. I don't know if that's absolutism. If you have an opportunity to get a highly skilled player I think it would be foolish to turn it down because of their size, that's all.

It doesn't have to do with Stankoven specifically or me being critical of the Stromgren pick. But if the scouts loved Stankoven and we passed because of size and who we drafted in the first round, I'm beside myself.

Stankoven isn't fast by NHL standards. He was fast in the Dub, but not a burner. He's a good skater otherwise and strong on the puck, but even in his junior highlights, most of his points are generated by his stickhandling, shot, hockey sense, and GAF.

A lot of teams probably looked at Stankoven on draft day after the COVID-shortened 2021 WHL season and saw a kid that was really talented, but would be too small and slow to make an impact in the NHL. No different than any other really talented, but really small CHL player (e.g. Matthew Phillips, Brandon Kozun, Jordan Weal, Justin Azevedo, Corey Locke, etc.)

By comparison, Stromgren was a consensus 2nd round pick in 2021 and a big man with the skill and skating of a player that's 5'10''. In that perspective, it's hard to fault the Flames for picking him over Stankoven. He's also a few months younger the Stankoven with plenty of time to turn things around.

[Sandman]

Out of thanks, but excellent post boogerz!

[Jiri Hrdina]

Originally Posted by Enoch Root

If NHL teams are incorrectly choosing size over 'small talent' then there is an opportunity to be exploited there. And GMing in a cap world is an efficiency game, so any opportunity to get an edge will be exploited by someone.

So here is a simple question: name a team that is generating success by consistently drafting smaller players. I won't even ask for cups, just success. Should be easy enough, if those opportunities are just hanging there.

The Canes have drafted a buttload of smallish skilled guys
Remains to see how it works but it’s very much a real time experiment

[Sandman]

In his draft year, Stromgren had 18 points in 14 J20 games, 12 points in 11 HockeyEttan games (Sweden’s third-tier men’s league- 3rd for U-18 players), and 9 points in 27 Allsvenskan games (Sweden’s second-tier men’s league-5th highest U-20 player, 1st for U-18), and he had an excellent U-18 tournament, with 5 points in 7 games. He had exemplary numbers, and contrary to some posters opinions, he had skill and speed. When he was picked, it was understood that he would need plenty of time to ripen. Let’s see what he looks like next season.

[Aarongavey]

Originally Posted by Sandman

If you have a team full of Ewoks, you will get steamrolled, especially in the playoffs. Whether some fans like it or not, hockey is a contact sport, with 50/50 battles in all 3 zones. As long as it remains a contact sport, size will always be important- and NHL GM’s think like me. Skill and speed are still the most important traits, but you need size too.

Every draft, the small guys fall, and the big guys rise. Every trade deadline, teams are looking for size and physicality, see Tanner Jeannot, Barclay Goodrow,etc. How many guys are in the league that are Stankoven’s size? Not that many.

You need both. Take the Tampa Bay Lightning, they had a good mix. Average forward height in the NHL is 6'1. They won the Stanley Cup twice. The 20/21 roster broke down like this in the playoffs by points scored

Kucherov - 5'11
Point - 5'11
Stamkos -6'0
Killorn - 6'1
Palat - 6'0
Cirelli - 6'0
Coleman -5'11
Gourde - 5'9
Johnson - 5'8
Colten - 6'0
Goodrow -6'2
Maroon -6'3
Joseph -6'1

When they wanted goals they put out the small guys. When the small guys needed a rest in the playoffs they put out the big guys. Everyone plays a part. If the big guys were not on that team, the small guys would get steamrolled because they would be tired from playing too much. Need the big guys to take some minutes.

[Freeway]

Stromgren's also been *really* good for the Wranglers over the last 3-5 weeks as the team's gotten raided by the Flames and hammered by injuries.

[Fan69]

Originally Posted by Freeway

Stromgren's also been *really* good for the Wranglers over the last 3-5 weeks as the team's gotten raided by the Flames and hammered by injuries.

Glad to hear! Stormgren is one of my dark horse guys.

[Aarongavey]

Originally Posted by Enoch Root

If NHL teams are incorrectly choosing size over 'small talent' then there is an opportunity to be exploited there. And GMing in a cap world is an efficiency game, so any opportunity to get an edge will be exploited by someone.

So here is a simple question: name a team that is generating success by consistently drafting smaller players. I won't even ask for cups, just success. Should be easy enough, if those opportunities are just hanging there.

Tampa already did that winning the Cup twice with a forward group that was significantly smaller than the league average for forwards. So they have two Cups on that model, basically backstopped by two small players drafted in the second and third round.

[The Original FFIV]

Originally Posted by Jiri Hrdina

The Canes have drafted a buttload of smallish skilled guys
Remains to see how it works but it’s very much a real time experiment

Doing it in the middle rounds. But a lot of them have been kids with nhl bloodlines (Blake and Robidas). We have gone for players with size (huckins and whynot) firm believer that you can’t win with Smurfs but need players with size and skill. That’s why guys like Mangiapane slip to late rounds and are picked in second year of eligibility. Glad we haven’t traded tanev for nic Robertson for that reason. Hate wasting picks that we use on guys we don’t sign but going safe with small guys (when we already have Pelletier and coronato) behooves the team to find guys like ciona and Parker bell who might put it together. But no more big rig hunter smiths with early picks please.

[Sandman]

Originally Posted by Aarongavey

You need both. Take the Tampa Bay Lightning, they had a good mix. Average forward height in the NHL is 6'1. They won the Stanley Cup twice. The 20/21 roster broke down like this in the playoffs by points scored

Kucherov - 5'11
Point - 5'11
Stamkos -6'0
Killorn - 6'1
Palat - 6'0
Cirelli - 6'0
Coleman -5'11
Gourde - 5'9
Johnson - 5'8
Colten - 6'0
Goodrow -6'2
Maroon -6'3
Joseph -6'1

When they wanted goals they put out the small guys. When the small guys needed a rest in the playoffs they put out the big guys. Everyone plays a part. If the big guys were not on that team, the small guys would get steamrolled because they would be tired from playing too much. Need the big guys to take some minutes.

You don’t “need” both. That team succeeded in spite of having some small players, not because of it. If you have two players to choose from, both of which have the same skillset, same points, same speed, but one is 5’9”, and one is 6’2”- you take the bigger one every time. That team also had a huge defense.

[Ashasx]

We don't even know if Coronato and Pelletier are NHLers yet. They may not be part of this team's core in 5 years. We don't know what the composition of this team will look like.

Who cares about player size right now. The Flames have exactly one proven long-term asset: Zary. He's has below average size, but that's one player.

The Flames simply need to target what they believe will be the best players going forward.

[Strange Brew]

Size doesn’t just factor into physicality. Reach and leverage are really helpful as well in protecting the puck and can help make up ground in the speed department.

IMO it’s not as simple as saying skill vs. size. There are so many attributes that go into skill.

[Snuffleupagus]

Originally Posted by Braden

I'll be mildly disappointed if we don't deal Markstrom, in my opinion it shouldn't take an absolute overpayment. He has value right now, he didn't last year and good chance if we sell our D he won't have very good numbers next year either.

You said out load what many of us are thinking.

[868904]

I don’t have a problem with the Stromgren pick as while he’s big, he is also skilled. Big players with skill are the most important asset in the league. Flames scouts probably saw Stromgren’s upside higher than Stankoven. A big powerful winger with size and skill who can pot you 30 goals and 60 points may have more or equal value to a small point per game winger, which is probably what they were projecting Stankoven to be.

The Stromgren pick is NOT like the Hunter Smith pick; who was big but had no skill. Stromgren projects as a top six forward; he might still get there but big power forwards take time.

[TheScorpion]

I understand the deference to bigger guys with skill — it's why I didn't mind the Honzek pick — but I don't love the trend of picking guys like Ronni, Stromgren, Huckins, Kuznetsov, Whynot, Boltmann, and Nikolaev with seconds and thirds. No, you can't only pick smaller guys like Carolina does but the Flames have really missed the mark with the bigger guys seemingly more than their fair share in recent years.

I understand wanting to be patient with a guy like Stromgren and while he does have some appealing attributes, it's impossible not to be disappointed with how he's played since he was drafted. 30 goals and 60 points in a season is an extremely lofty target for him at this point.

[genetic_phreek]

@Sandman,

I trust your scouting assessments, what's better for the team, Ewoks or Smurfs?

[Calgary4LIfe]

I wouldn't call Tampa small. They also made up for it with big defencemen. They were no pushovers.


I actually think that many fans have simply started equating 'big' with 'unskilled'.


I like to think of it this way - wave your magic want, and build me the perfect hockey player. Mine is:


6'4" (but no shorter than 6'0"), fast - both at top speed and a first step, agile and can change directions on a dime, stickhandling is top-notch, wicked slapper, wicked wrister, wicked snap, big hitter, great fighter, great defensively, fearless, playmaker, etc., etc.


I am not even sure why this argument is coming up. Ok, Flames missed on Stankoven (just like every other team did). Look at who they have drafted over the last 10 years, however. Why is this argument even a thing?


Point me to the prospects that the Flames have drafted in the recent few drafts that were big and unskilled. I don't see any. Maybe 7th rounder Hurtig from the past draft?



Look at the last 1st round picks taken by Calgary - Coronato 5'10", Zary 6'0", Pelletier 5'9".



How about all of the 5'10" and under players that they have taken? Phillips 5'8" (yeah, right!), Pelletier (again - 5'9"), Ryan Francis 5'10", Kerins 5'10", Pettersen 5'10", Zavgorodniy 5'8", I swear Fox was listed at 5'10 at the draft, but 5'11 on HDB now, Mangiapane 5'10", Granlund 5'10, Gaudreau 5'9" (if you can believe that - he is shorter). Also, Wolf wasn't that small, but at 5'11", he was considerably smaller than this new age of NHL goalies, but the Flames still drafted him too.



Are the Flames a very small team? Nope. Why? Well, how many of these small players actually made it?



I will use Phillips here as an example. I don't know why he got over-hyped here. Dube, Mangiapane, Coronato, Pelletier, etc., have all reached the PPG status quicker at the AHL level than Phillips. Phillips in Junior wasn't as exceptional offensively as he is being given credit for either - 71GP and 112pts vs Mangiapane's 59GP and 106pts - is that really much better? I have maintained in the last few seasons that Phillips isn't skilled enough as a top 6 player in the NHL regardless of his size, period, but with his lack of size there is nowhere else in the lineup that he can fill a spot in and actually contribute. Even Washington fans said they liked him, but that he never showed much in the way of skill.


It isn't like the Flames are shying away from small undersized players. However, the second one undersized player gets past where the Flames pick in the draft, suddenly it is a 'thing that the Flames do'. I don't understand it. I think they have been picking too many undersized players overall over the years, but I also think that's a byproduct of not selecting high enough in the draft. They are going by BPA, period, from what it looks like to me, and not necessarily preferring size. However, if they have two prospects close, I would only assume that they will take the bigger player.


This is where scouting is so nuanced. You don't hit on everyone. There are different philosophies. For instance, I remember in the 2013 draft, Button spoke about (IIRC - maybe I am confusing players at the combine now) Shinkaruk, and whether or not a team should select an underdeveloped player or a physically built player. His point (again, if I recall correctly) was that the underdeveloped player may be excelling because of other factors, and that there is room for him to put on muscle and develop new paths of success. The more developed guy may be taking advantage of his bigger size. However, you have to scout player thoroughly, as the underdeveloped guy might be more talented now, but he may be lazy or not as committed, and as soon as is on a team with better players playing against other players, they leave him behind in the dust, while the more developed player has the character to continue really working hard and continuing to find success. Both can be good, and both can be bad.


I think that can apply to size overall. Unquestionably, small players can have a tonne of success in this league, and even become HHOF superstars that lift a number of cups in their career. However, it is still an advantage to being big and strong too.


Of course you pick Gaudreau, Kane, and St.Louis when building a championship team over McGrattan, Oliwa and Goddard. That's easy. However, I would rather pick Mario, Lindros and Jagr all things considered, right? Or in today's game, I pick Crosby, MacKinnon and McDavid (ok, Crosby is stretching it at 5'11", but he is hardly undersized, as I believe 5'11" is the average).


Anyway, I think I am going way beyond the scope of the argument.


TLDR; Flames have clearly picked BPA for countless drafts now as evidenced by the wide disparity of size ranges, including in the 1st round, that it makes any talk of Flames passing over small skilled players a moot point based on long-discarded previous preferences (that may not even have existed really, outside of Burke's one and only draft).

[TheScorpion]

Tbh I think the concerns people have go beyond size. As you mention, the Flames have drafted many smaller players, some of whom have done well and others who have fizzled out. I think the concern is when they draft players with seemingly very little star potential in the first two rounds. With Topi Ronni in particular, it always felt like they were swinging for the infield. The good news is it seems they shifted away from that particular approach a little bit this past year with their top three picks.

[boogerz]

Originally Posted by TheScorpion

Tbh I think the concerns people have go beyond size. As you mention, the Flames have drafted many smaller players, some of whom have done well and others who have fizzled out. I think the concern is when they draft players with seemingly very little star potential in the first two rounds. With Topi Ronni in particular, it always felt like they were swinging for the infield. The good news is it seems they shifted away from that particular approach a little bit this past year with their top three picks.

Treliving's draft record in the first three rounds of the 2015-20 drafts look quite balanced between size, skill, and star potential.

It feels like Sutter had a lot of organizational influence with the sudden in change draft philosophy in 2021 and 2022, where big = good seems to be the primary selection criteria