2023/2024 Trade Rumors and Speculation Thread

[Hackey]

Originally Posted by Vinny01

What you are saying about Ottawa can be said about the Flames. Those teams made coaching and management changes because they couldn’t shake the loser culture those teams embraced. There is not a team that embraced the tank that has turned it around quickly. If a tankbuild works it will take more than a decade and a lot of luck is required.

Toronto has one playoff round win in 20 years and you use them as an example of how a quick tankbuild can work? Calgary is a dangerous market to attempt this in because it ranks low in terms of desirability for players. I think Conroy is doing it right by refusing the tank so let’s hope he avoids the same short cuts Treliving took by trading a bunch of draft picks for veterans and he is able to make some smart choices with the additional capital he is going to continue to pick up.

Toronto has no defense, goalie, depth. That isn't the fault of a rebuild or tanking. The rebuild and tanking did what it was supposed to do and that was find their elite players. Their inability to build around those superstars is a management issue.

[Heavy Jack]

Originally Posted by bluejays

What did Dorion do that was so bad? Honestly aside from the Zibanejad deal most of the other deals have been decent. He stuck to the plan and drafted well. I didn't like some of his moves, like any GM, but he wasn't terrible in my estimation at least. He was actually among the upper third I'd say just based on his track record for not totally screwing his team over in the future.

I dunno, it seemed to me that despite some good contracts and decisions he always ran a team that was in perpetual rebuild mode. Not unlike Jarmo in Columbust, supremely underwhelming resume all things considered.

[kobasew19]

From Ottawa’s perspective I bet someone like Norris may be on the move, big contract based on one good year and they’re already loaded up front.

[bluejays]

Originally Posted by Heavy Jack

I dunno, it seemed to me that despite some good contracts and decisions he always ran a team that was in perpetual rebuild mode. Not unlike Jarmo in Columbust, supremely underwhelming resume all things considered.

Yeah, he couldn't bring it to the next level. And that's a headscratcher moreso on the players not developing to their potential as they should have. But he was working with a very difficult owner in Melnyk who put in guys like McGuire into positions that weren't earned. He also dealt with ridiculous situations like the Hoffman/Karlsson wife drama. Then ultimately had to trade Stone. It was a lot to deal with and he handled it in stride. Where he did err, was the end where he didn't disclose the NTC. Probably highly unethical. But all in all, I really think his body of work was pretty solid for the small market things they had to deal with and the wrenches thrown his way.

[Heavy Jack]

Not disagreeing with you that he definitely had ownership roadblocks and personal hurdles he had to contend with for sure. Maybe it’s because the good pieces they have landed just haven’t been able to push it to the next level that I’m being overly critical of his tenure in your eyes, part of it too is it’s a Canadian market team small or not and with that comes a more critical eye. I like the team too, hoping for the sens to put things together because when the Sens/Leafs are both firing on all cylinders it makes for a more fun division.

[Calgary4LIfe]

Edmonton, Pittsburgh, Buffalo, Ottawa. One of those teams is not like the others.


Pittsburgh brought in Mario Lemieux himself to help Crosby become a leader, plus Odelein, Gary Roberts, Guerin, Recchi, Leclair, Sydor - in those first 3 seasons, Crosby had a tonne of really solid veteran support. Who did McDavid have? Hall? What about Fantilli? Gudbranson, Gaudreau and Jenner? What about Brady Tkachuk - Giroux and...Hamonic?


There's part of the problem right there. That's exactly why Ottawa has specifically targeted Tanev.


Also, I would say that Ottawa is changing. They have a new owner, and they mandate is to be 'best in class'. They have been going out and hiring more highly regarded personnel in the hockey ops, and the owner is spending a tonne of money right now trying to right their ship. If I was to bank on one young team from the bottom of the standings right now, it would be Ottawa. I think Columbus is more talented, but Ottawa is going to be the better team because they are becoming better managed.


In a perfect world, Calgary keeps Tanev and Markstrom to be solid leaders, but the returns are just too good. Edmonton had 6 games of Ference (36) - who was a pretty good leader - in McDavid's first season. They also traded for Matt Hendricks (34), who IIRC, refused to sign in Edmonton, but they then went and traded for. Oh, 9 games of Adam Pardy (31), 8 games of Adam Cracknell (30). 82 games of Mark Letestu. Those were the leaders brought in to help McDavid. Laughable when you compare that to Pittsburgh.


As for the "Flames can't rebuild while Huberdeau and Kadri are here" stuff - Chicago had 9 guys 30 and above the first year of Toews' career in Chicago. They sold a couple of them (Lapointe and Johanssson), but also traded for Craig Adams. The year they won their first cup, they had 7 guys 30 and over, bringing in 36 year old John Madden specifically for his leadership.


It isn't just any old guy. You can't go out and trade for players like Shane O'Brien and David Jones. You have to bring in solid vets. I think it makes perfect sense for a team like Ottawa who has identified a lack of leadership and poor culture organizationally as problems, and have been trying to hire (and acquire) good people to help turn things around. A guy like Tanev should be at the top of their list, but if they don't trade for him, they won't get him as I believe whichever organization ends up trading for him will be extending him before the season is out.


I like Calgary's mix going forward - Backlund and Coleman seem like fantastic vets that can help lead the way, plus Huberdeau - especially after everything he has gone through and turning his game around - plus Andersson who seems like a really good young leader already (27, not exactly young, but not an old vet either), and Weegar (29). Kadri I am still on the fence about, as him just seemingly quitting on the team last year was kind of spectacular for all the wrong reasons, but he seems to be really good with Zary and Pospisil.


I think some teams have an easier time attracting good vets, or they have to drastically overpay for them. Even Chicago went out and overpaid for vets to try and get them to stay. Calgary taking it right down to the studs would be too difficult to come back from, IMO. Keeping some of the existing vets that want to be here is a good choice, as is getting the alumni more involved with the organization. Conroy as the GM, bringing Iginla into the fold - these moves will help as well. I am genuinely excited about the direction that Conroy has this team pointed in right now - a rebuild without it being right down to the studs.


Another team that I am keeping my eye on during the upcoming off-season is Columbus. That team has way too much talent to suck this bad. Then I look at their leadership group - Gudbranson is the oldest at 31. Solid leader, but they had to overpay to get him. Gaudreau is actually the next oldest on the list, and he doesn't really give out 'leadership vibes' to anyone, and his Babcock comments made you realize he isn't one of those leaders. Never heard of Danforth who is also 30. Then you have Jenner - solid leader from what everyone says (though, again, seemed like a mouthpiece to protect Babcock rather than protect the players). The leadership group is Jenner C, Gudbranson, Kuraly and Werenski with the As. Seems to be a team lacking leadership to me, but a team full of young talent who should be better. Sounds a lot like Ottawa, but even worse in that category.

[Vinny01]

Originally Posted by Hackey

Toronto has no defense, goalie, depth. That isn't the fault of a rebuild or tanking. The rebuild and tanking did what it was supposed to do and that was find their elite players. Their inability to build around those superstars is a management issue.

Getting defense is not some easy task and virtually is the same as top forwards you need to draft them. Goaltending also is pretty tough to come by so while Toronto drafted some high end forwards who are stars they probably should have used more of those high picks on blueliners.


Toronto is also stuck in the spot where they are trading picks for win now guys which limits their prospect pool and that’s among the only ways to get cheap depth when you have 4 players making $11M+

[Heavy Jack]

When I think about it, outside of the Canucks jumping in front of the market for Lindholm and paying up for him, nothing has really happened. I think patience is going to pay off for Conroy here, it’s taking its toll for sure on the roster especially with the team at home now for a stretch but he’s obviously hedging all his bets and I think as flames fans we will appreciate the outcome here. Really looking forward to the first domino falling and the frenzy that follows, it’s fun to be on this side and with a full deck of cards.

[Samonadreau]

Originally Posted by Heavy Jack

When I think about it, outside of the Canucks jumping in front of the market for Lindholm and paying up for him, nothing has really happened. I think patience is going to pay off for Conroy here, it’s taking its toll for sure on the roster especially with the team at home now for a stretch but he’s obviously hedging all his bets and I think as flames fans we will appreciate the outcome here. Really looking forward to the first domino falling and the frenzy that follows, it’s fun to be on this side and with a full deck of cards.

Only big issue with 'hedging' is that the players start falling off, most notably Markstrom or theres and Injury, most notably Tanev.

[Heavy Jack]

Totally get it but we’re still a ways from the trade deadline in the hockey realm, a lot can happen in 3 weeks and there are some tight races; I think by this weekend though we should start to see some movement. I’m not too worried about Markstroms play dropping off or a couple bad starts here hurting his current perceived value. He carries a ton of value with his pedigree and remaining term and a palatable AAV especially if Calgary ends up retaining. With teams that are really good and in their current win window I think we will be happy with the return. Tanev does make me nervous but at the same time holding him out too long before you’re actually able to realize full value is a dance. There is lots of interest in Tanev and you have to keep him sharp playing wise too, if you sit him teams will wonder why just from the nature of the player whether the flames indicate he’s healthy or not. Tanev will happen soon, Marky I think will happen before the deadline but I could see being pushed if Conroy feels the return is low. Hanifin I think could go right to the deadline and I think it’s because Conroy wants to realize the most out of him possible and that might require teams reacting and feeling like they’ve missed out on improving their team.

[ForeverFlameFan]

Originally Posted by Samonadreau

Only big issue with 'hedging' is that the players start falling off, most notably Markstrom or theres and Injury, most notably Tanev.

Players starting to fall off is more of a team issue than an individual. I’m making sure I pay attention to the minutes of the player instead of the final score. Tanev when healthy is one of the best defensive D out there. Markstrom with a good D in front of him is a good goalie.

We will get our value. We have too players in the market. Conroy is absolutely doing the right thing waiting. It’s rumored many teams want Tanev but none have ponied up the 1st. The demand is there, Conroy just needs to be patient.

[JurassicTunga12]

With Dissentowner mentioning Carolina as one of the serious bidders for Markstrom, I wonder what you guys think about Kotkaniemi? He fits the age range(23) and position(C) that Conroy is seeking. Not sure what is going on with him. Seems to be stuck on the 4th line. Could he be a worth a shot?


1st+Kotkaniemi+?

[jg13]

nvm

[jg13]

not even going to get into it.

[Snuffleupagus]

Originally Posted by JurassicTunga12

With Dissentowner mentioning Carolina as one of the serious bidders for Markstrom, I wonder what you guys think about Kotkaniemi? He fits the age range(23) and position(C) that Conroy is seeking. Not sure what is going on with him. Seems to be stuck on the 4th line. Could he be a worth a shot?


1st+Kotkaniemi+?

Carolina has crazy center depth, Kotkaniemi is talented and could pop in Calgary's top 6

[Sandman]

I agree, yes to Kotkaniemi. Size, speed, skill, and a C.

[Flames1217]

KK would be an interesting option for sure.

He has recently been relegated to thier 4th line and essentially lost his spot to Jack Drury.

In view of his salary, I could see Carolina tempted to let him go and he could still turn into a solid second line centre here. His inconsistencies do worry me a bit though.

[CliffFletcher]

Originally Posted by JurassicTunga12

With Dissentowner mentioning Carolina as one of the serious bidders for Markstrom, I wonder what you guys think about Kotkaniemi? He fits the age range(23) and position(C) that Conroy is seeking. Not sure what is going on with him. Seems to be stuck on the 4th line. Could he be a worth a shot?

From LeBrun’s article on the Hurricanes in the Athletic today:

Two months ago, the Canes were poking around the goaltending market, and it felt like they might act there because of injuries and inconsistency at the position. But they ended up getting through it without making a move and now are no longer looking to upgrade there.

“We think we’re fine,” Waddell said of the Canes goaltending.

[bluejays]

Kotkaniemi is who he is by now. That’s alright but to me unless you have high end talent, you’re going for the St Louis model of winning the cup with a homogenous lineup. And isn’t he signed to that long contract after the Montreal offer sheet situation? I have nothing against the guy, but for Markstrom I’d hope there would be a future first rounder coming along too.

[Ped]

I think Dorion's mistakes had a lot more to do with misjudging where his team is at and going after players who weren't a long-term fit. The carousel of goaltending is one thing, because goalies are voodoo, right?\


But trading for Murray and giving him the big contract when he was already on the decline, making the DeBrincat trade without finding out if he even wanted to be in Ottawa.


Many of his trades were quite good in a vacuum - but only if you didn't take into account their actual state of franchise. But absolutely, Melnyk was a big factor.