Official WWE/ECW/WCW/TNA talk, or whatever v2

[Ozy_Flame]

You need to separate two very basic elements of wrestling - character work and wrestling work.

People get physically injured from wrestling work. Not character work.

Talent is not allowed on NXT television without being properly wrestling-trained. It is functioning brand with its own audience, TV slot, and promotional consumer angles just like RAW and Smackdown.

Injuries happen. But NXT is not where you 'cut your teeth' learning how to wrestle.

And back to my point, WWE has a Performance Center problem - too many people are getting injured training in wrestling. I don't know if its the Crossfit-style crap they do, the style of wrestling training they're engaging in, or if it's their personal training regimens, but there is an abnormally high amount of injuries and is a source for concern. I mean Nikita Lyonns just got injured. Again. IN addition to a bunch of the other female talent.

The fact that you cannot separate the two shows you don't have a handle on this at all.

[Blaster86]

Originally Posted by Ozy_Flame

The fact that you cannot separate the two shows you don't have a handle on this at all.

Ah, so it is developmental, but not for in ring work just for character work. Got it. Lets move the goal posts more to justify how and why it's totally okay that the second biggest promotion in the world has headlining acts that cannot work safe and repeatedly do things that injure themselves and others.

I think my handle on this is pretty solid. You need to take your blinders off and realize that AEW has and continues to have a serious issue in regards to this. Or you can join the pack and try and run Stevie Richards off the internet. Your call.


Edit - Injuries during wrestling development has been an issue for 40+ years. It's a physical performance art where you need to have the ultimate trust in the person you are working with. I think developmental would benefit massively from MORE veteran presence during development. CM Punk spending so much time at the performance center is huge. Needs more. Especially long term, bigtime safe workers. I'd love guys like Cena, The Miz, Bret Hart etc etc would find time to go down there and just spend time with the young guys and girls.

[Ozy_Flame]

My dude, you keep skipping the fact that my argument has nothing to do with AEW. I'm slamming WWE's Performance Center as being not safe and causing injuries.

NXT is about as developmental as Raw or Smackdown. Only trained professionals are allowed to work those TV shows. People even take their character work to NXT (Becky Lynch? Baron Corbin? Finn Balor? The list goes on).

What planet are you on?

[SuperMatt18]

Originally Posted by Ozy_Flame

Injuries happen. But NXT is not where you 'cut your teeth' learning how to wrestle.

I don't think your overall point is wrong, but I do think this is a bit false.

There are a lot of people on NXT TV that are still super green. Sure some of the the main guys / upper end of the card are people with a bit more history in the indies. But lots of people that are really new to wrestling, especially in the womens division.

The Development Center is where they are getting most of their training and where they are learning to be wrestlers, but NXT is 100% still a step in the development process where you're "cutting your teeth".

[Blaster86]

Originally Posted by Ozy_Flame

My dude, you keep skipping the fact that my argument has nothing to do with AEW. I'm slamming WWE's Performance Center as being not safe and causing injuries.

As a means to justify why it happening in AEW is fine. Your issue wasn't out of the blue to attack the performance center. It's a strawman. You're not wrong that NXT has injuries and people getting hurt as they learn and make mistakes. It just has nothing to do with AEW having this issue. It's not apples to apples. The conversation wasn't about NXT. It was about another stupid decision on AEW tv.

Originally Posted by Ozy_Flame

NXT is about as developmental as Raw or Smackdown. Only trained professionals are allowed to work those TV shows. People even take their character work to NXT (Becky Lynch? Baron Corbin? Finn Balor? The list goes on).

There are different stages of training. There are different levels of experience. Being ready to perform on camera does not mean you aren't still learning when off camera. Stone Cold Steve Austin, at his peak, appeared on OVW TV. Was OVW not developmental? Having big name stars appearing and giving rubs to people who are close to graduating and moving up does not change its developmental status.

Originally Posted by Ozy_Flame

What planet are you on?

The rational one.

You want to change your argument or the topic again, or are you good on this one?

[Ozy_Flame]

Fine. Agree to disagree. NXT was a developmental brand but that's what the WWE Performance Center is for and has been for years. NXT is for younger wrestlers with a specific audience who are at a minimum level of competence. Injuries happen there, they (for some reason too frequently) happen in the Performance Center, they happen on the main roster, and they happen in AEW.

And NXT is still unwatchable for me IMO. Those kids don't know how to sell, have ring psychology, or tell a story. It's a shadow of its former self.

Come at me, NXT stans. That brand can do no wrong.

[Blaster86]

Originally Posted by Ozy_Flame

Fine. Agree to disagree. NXT was a developmental brand but that's what the WWE Performance Center is for and has been for years.

Holy ####, NXT and the Performance Center ARE THE SAME THING. They're the same entity. The performance center is a part of NXT. NXT is the promotional developmental aspect of the Performance Center.

Yes injuries happen in the course of wrestling matches. It is a highly physical and dangerous performance art. Only one major self-sustaining promotion has injuries and dangerous spots on a regular basis being performed by people who should know better.

Originally Posted by Ozy_Flame

Come at me, NXT stans. That brand can do no wrong.

It does a lot wrong. Lots of things on NXT aren't good. When you have newer performers learning a new style or just outright learning you have matches and angles that need a lot of polish and prep. Outside of the top of the card with people are close to graduating to the main roster it's got a lot of stuff that needs a lot of work. That's its purpose.

[Ozy_Flame]

Originally Posted by Blaster86

Holy ####, NXT and the Performance Center ARE THE SAME THING. They're the same entity. The performance center is a part of NXT. NXT is the promotional developmental aspect of the Performance Center.

No. They. Are. Not.

The Performance Center trains WWE talent on all brands. NXT is a WWE brand that uses the Performance Center.

Good god.

[Blaster86]

Originally Posted by Ozy_Flame

No. They. Are. Not.

The Performance Center trains WWE talent on all brands. NXT is a WWE brand that uses the Performance Center.

Good god.

According to the WWE's own training website, it's labeled as part of the WWE training and development path. It's on the WWE Performance Center's facebook page as being connected. Stop arguing in bad faith to justify AEW having an issue with in ring injuries by talent that should not be working dangerously is completely normal.

I get you love AEW. I get you want the best for it. Despite what it may seem, I also want the best for it because wrestling is best when there is more than one major, healthy promotion. Acknowledging it has a major issue does not mean you love it less. You don't lose your fandom.


Edit - Also, the answer this question

Originally Posted by Blaster86

You want to change your argument or the topic again, or are you good on this one?

Was you are not good and wish to continue.

[Ozy_Flame]

NXT is NOT the PC, and the PC is NOT NXT.

Connected? Yes. They share facilities and physically train wrestlers. Same thing? Absolutely not.

These are two separate entities. NXT locates its live events at the PC, NXT is the brand that has their roster training at the PC, just like Raw and Smackdown to train and rehab their roster talent. The PC Is a wrestling training facility, sports science and medical facility.

That's like saying all Cirque du Soleil training center in Montreal is the same thing as their Cirque shows. They're not.

Why is this so hard? Bad Faith is saying these are one and the same.

[Blaster86]

Originally Posted by Ozy_Flame

Why is this so hard? Bad Faith is saying these are one and the same.

Got it. WWE's own corporate messaging is wrong. Not you. I'm good here.

[Ozy_Flame]

Originally Posted by Blaster86

Got it. WWE's own corporate messaging is wrong. Not you. I'm good here.

You want to to link to the verbiage you're getting that from? I'd like you to share it word for word.

[trackercowe]

AEW obviously let's their talent take more risks than in WWE. I don't think anyone would disagree with that. WWE has its own style they strive to teach their pupils. AEW uses more of an indie style where talent puts together their own matches as opposed to agents and writers that piece the match together.

Also in WWE they are on the road more often and work house shows. So talent is able to build chemistry together and conduct multiple matches together. There are more inherent risks working in AEW, I don't think anyone can deny that? Someone like Darby Allin (or Sammy) would never work in WWE with how their matches are styled, and the bumps they take.

Just look at Punk being so opposed to Jack Perry using real glass, he came from the WWE environment where something like that would never take place. Meanwhile in AEW using real glass is the "norm". Punk would probably still be in AEW if it weren't for this exact reason. In AEW the talent puts their matches together, which is both good and bad. The wrestling itself is superior, but it will result in more risks taken (and more injuries). WWE would never sponser Darby to climb Everest... Tony is probably all for it.

[SuperMatt18]

Originally Posted by Ozy_Flame

NXT is NOT the PC, and the PC is NOT NXT.

Connected? Yes. They share facilities and physically train wrestlers. Same thing? Absolutely not.

These are two separate entities. NXT locates its live events at the PC, NXT is the brand that has their roster training at the PC, just like Raw and Smackdown to train and rehab their roster talent. The PC Is a wrestling training facility, sports science and medical facility.

That's like saying all Cirque du Soleil training center in Montreal is the same thing as their Cirque shows. They're not.

Why is this so hard? Bad Faith is saying these are one and the same.

TBH you've kind of changed your argument.

You said this:

NXT is about as developmental as Raw or Smackdown. Only trained professionals are allowed to work those TV shows. People even take their character work to NXT (Becky Lynch? Baron Corbin? Finn Balor? The list goes on).

Which was not true. NXT is 100% development and is not directly comparable to Raw or Smackdown in terms of how experienced or how skilled the wrestlers are. Sometimes main roster wrestlers will go back to NXT but that's generally to help with ratings, or to help with development (they tend to come back as Coaches/wrestlers).

In terms of Raw/Smackdown vs AEW to me this is the major difference.

When somebody gets hurt on Raw/Smackdown I feel like it's generally an accident or mistake.

When somebody gets hurt on AEW it's sometimes just an accident, but often it' s because they are being overly reckless.

And I think there is a big difference. Mistakes are going to happen in this industry, but being reckless should not be accepted.

[Ozy_Flame]

My argument has stayed the same the entire time.

- The Performance Center is not NXT and NXT is not the Performance Center. These are not one and the same.
- NXT is its own viable brand. They have performers going between brands to build storylines and draw interest to the product. There was no need to have big names like Becky Lynch come down unless they wanted more eyes on the product. You don't need star power like that help develop NXT talent - plenty of NXT talent gets over on their own with their own audience preferences.
- The PC has a training injury problem. AEW is not part of that equation; it has it's own issues. I have been very clear about this.

If you told me NXT house shows were, the sure. Do they even still do them? I think it's just TV tapings at this point and they don't let untrained talent that are too green wrestle, just like they don't on Raw or Smackdown.

[trackercowe]

Didn't they ship Ridge Holland back to NXT to develop him, as he was hurting people on the main roster? They definitely didn't send him back to boost ratings. They saw he wasn't ready for the main stage, and was still rough around the edges.

[Ozy_Flame]

Originally Posted by trackercowe

Didn't they ship Ridge Holland back to NXT to develop him, as he was hurting people on the main roster? They definitely didn't send him back to boost ratings. They saw he wasn't ready for the main stage, and was still rough around the edges.

Don't think so. He didn't go back to the NXT brand after that, which was in March 2022. He stayed on the main brand until late in 2023, in which he then faced Dragunov to put over him over and feigned the neck injury as kayfabe storylne.

If anything happened during that time following Big E's injury (that's what you're referencing), he likely went back to the PC for more training.

[Inferno]

Originally Posted by Ozy_Flame

There was no need to have big names like Becky Lynch come down unless they wanted more eyes on the product. You don't need star power like that help develop NXT talent - plenty of NXT talent gets over on their own with their own audience preferences.

It certainly doesn't hurt your development to work with a veteran from the main roster.

I think having Becky come down and win the title had more to do with her being the only one of the Four Horsewomen who didn't win the NXT title. Then having Lyra Valkyria beat her for the title gave Lyra even more credibility.

If you told me NXT house shows were, the sure. Do they even still do them? I think it's just TV tapings at this point and they don't let untrained talent that are too green wrestle, just like they don't on Raw or Smackdown.

Yes, they still do them. Cora Jade suffered her ACL(?) injury at a house show.

[Inferno]

Originally Posted by Ozy_Flame

Don't think so. He didn't go back to the NXT brand after that, which was in March 2022. He stayed on the main brand until late in 2023, in which he then faced Dragunov to put over him over and feigned the neck injury as kayfabe storylne.

If anything happened during that time following Big E's injury (that's what you're referencing), he likely went back to the PC for more training.

He's back in NXT right now. He just had a match this week.

Them sending talent down from the main roster who can use more work isn't new.

[trackercowe]

Take it for what you will. On the state of AEW today.

WON: AEW talent is reportedly frustrated with Tony Khan, feeling the popularity is steadily declining, even though Khan presents the product in a 'stronger' light:

"There is also frustration from a lot of circles since talent comes to the shows and sees the smaller crowds since the start of the year. Khan always paints a positive picture about the company being stronger due to increased revenues, or bringing up ratings, and there’s the feeling that popularity is declining overall and changes have to be made to turn it around and he’s acting like everything is fine".