[Rumour] Friedman: Devils and Flames have had legit discussions about Markstrom

[Paulie Walnuts]

With how prepared they are with mapping out scenarios and packages they want, that retention would be something they know what they can and cannot do.

All of this is speculation at this point from, someone saying I think to rile everyone up. Frank is one of the worst in the business.

[Southside]

Conroy talked about the value of retention slots and weaponizing cap space. Surely him and ownership are not that far apart? If they are, it's an issue.

https://newjerseyhockeynow.com/2024/...-devils-trade/

[Jay Random]

Originally Posted by RedHawk12

More likely the sequence of events is: get the best offer possible that you're willing to agree to, and if the final offer includes a 2M retention, you go to the owner and ask if it's ok. In this case, Murray probably said no and the deal fell apart.

That's the most logical way I see it, which would be too bad.

What’s more logical, and fits with the reports, is that Conroy himself did not agree to a deal because the Devils wanted him to retain salary but were not willing to give up additional assets to make that worthwhile. There's no reason to suppose the owners were involved in that decision.

[Heavy Jack]

Originally Posted by dissentowner

I mean you could do that but I have been saying the Flames have wanted Mercer well before this dialogue ever started. The problem with taking Holtz instead with other assets is where do you find another young C with the pedigree of Mercer that a team will make available? Where are you playing Holtz right now? He needs to play in a top 6 to really develop his skills which means taking Pospisil off the Kadri line. I think Conroy is playing it right, they can either include the piece you want or they can go pound sand. Make them sweat it out, there is time.

Only center that pops off my head at first thought would be Zegras, he is only 22 and a ways away from UFA but I understand your reservations around that player as well come the time he’d be UFA, could easily be a Tkachuk 2.0. But he’d be 4 seasons from that and the flames new arena would be here.

Huberdeau - Zegras - Kuzmenko

That’d be a pretty fun line honestly, not very D-focused though

I’m with you though, Conroy is proving to be savvy and he isn’t one to make rash decisions as a GM, his next few plays however they shake out I’m confident will be well thought out deals.

[jayswin]

Originally Posted by Jay Random

What’s more logical, and fits with the reports, is that Conroy himself did not agree to a deal because the Devils wanted him to retain salary but were not willing to give up additional assets to make that worthwhile. There's no reason to suppose the owners were involved in that decision.

That makes the most sense to me. Way more so than a deal being almost complete but the player suddenly switches from Mercer to Holtz last minute.

[Sidney Crosby's Hat]

Originally Posted by redmile04

I like Markstrom and he has been amazing, but consistent is not the word to describe him. Not even close.

.918 all the way down to .904.. up to .922 and all the way down to .892 ( no excuses, he was awful) .. back up to .916.. and based on track record- next season will be a down year...

Lot of goalies/players go through things lke new teams, changes on teams, have gone through covid years as well, etc No excuses.

Plus, he's 34. If he was even 30 and had that track record I'd be more likely if I was acquiring him to give him a pass for the weird seasons.

I think a good comparison for off-season return is Darcy Kuemper who fetched a first and a c-level prospect when traded to Colorado from Arizona. He was 31 at the time. He was making $4.5 million.

[Bonded]

Originally Posted by dissentowner

I said they wouldn't approach him unless they thought they could get a great return. Clearly they believe they could get that return from NJ. I am not saying they would have asked Markstrom as soon as NJ asked about him, I am guessing there was some conversation initially where Conroy thought it was worth pursuing enough to ask him to waive. What I was saying is you don't negotiate the final details of the deal without approaching the player first to see if he will even waive.

We can agree to disagree but if the hard line was Mercer and New Jersey said no then the trade conversation would be over quickly. Doesn't really track to ask a player to waive if the first component isn't done.

[Bonded]

Originally Posted by Jay Random

What’s more logical, and fits with the reports, is that Conroy himself did not agree to a deal because the Devils wanted him to retain salary but were not willing to give up additional assets to make that worthwhile. There's no reason to suppose the owners were involved in that decision.

Why'd he ask the player to waive if the deal wasn't there. If the deal is contingent on retention it isn't a minor detail to quibble over.

[trackercowe]

If the Devils want a goalie to solve their issues, is there anyone available on Markstrom's level? There's John Gibson, but he's had injury issues and isn't nearly as good as he once was. Jake Allen isn't much of an improvement over what they have. Maybe MAF, but he's 39, and his best days are far behind him.

I think really only Markstrom makes any sense for them, especially since he has term left and would solve their goaltending issues for a couple seasons. You would have to think this deal gets done, especially seeing as how there's history between the two teams with the Toffoli deal.

[CliffFletcher]

Originally Posted by Southside

Conroy talked about the value of retention slots and weaponizing cap space. Surely him and ownership are not that far apart? If they are, it's an issue.

https://newjerseyhockeynow.com/2024/...-devils-trade/

I expect Edwards is okay with retaining on expiring contracts, but not on longer ones. Which handcuffs Conroy when it comes to weaponizing cap space. If Holtz and significant draft capital (ie NJD 2024 1st) were on the table, that’s a huge missed opportunity for this franchise. Goalies almost never get back premium returns in mid-season trades.

[Jay Random]

Originally Posted by Bonded

Why'd he ask the player to waive if the deal wasn't there. If the deal is contingent on retention it isn't a minor detail to quibble over.

Because you don't spend hours hammering out the fine details of a trade if there is no trade to be made.

If I'm negotiating on behalf of the Devils, I'm not wasting my time on that. I'd be telling Conroy, ‘Here is my initial offer. If you think we can work out a deal, ask Markstrom now if he will waive, because it's not worth my time to discuss it if he won't.’

[stemit14]

We all speculate on the return that should be associated with salary retention or taking on a bad contract. And most of us use Treliving’s Monahan trade to Montreal as the benchmark. The problem with that is I think Treliving overpaid for that and it would not surprise me if most other GMs think the same thing at this point. Treliving cornered himself into having to trade Monahan right away because of the Kadri signing.

I think the return for retaining $3 million in salary would be closer to a 2nd round pick instead of a 1st round pick. Not that I don’t think the flames should get a 1st round pick for Markstrom - they definitely should. I’m just starting to think the return for retention is not as valuable as we think because it’s very hard to make any trade work these days without it unless you take back roster players.

[dissentowner]

Originally Posted by Bonded

We can agree to disagree but if the hard line was Mercer and New Jersey said no then the trade conversation would be over quickly. Doesn't really track to ask a player to waive if the first component isn't done.

Well neither of us know how that played out, maybe Mercer was on the table if the Flames took no other assets back, maybe not. We are all just speculating here.

[Jiri Hrdina]

Originally Posted by Southside

Conroy talked about the value of retention slots and weaponizing cap space. Surely him and ownership are not that far apart? If they are, it's an issue.

https://newjerseyhockeynow.com/2024/...-devils-trade/

Could he a difference when you are talking multi years of retention

[Toonage]

I'd be surprised if Conroy was under the impression he could retain on any deal only to be told last minute that he couldn't retain on contracts with term.

If he knew that he couldn't retain on contracts with term then the issue would be amount for the rest of this year which seems trivial if the return was agreed upon.

[Sidney Crosby's Hat]

Originally Posted by trackercowe

If the Devils want a goalie to solve their issues, is there anyone available on Markstrom's level? There's John Gibson, but he's had injury issues and isn't nearly as good as he once was. Jake Allen isn't much of an improvement over what they have. Maybe MAF, but he's 39, and his best days are far behind him.

I think really only Markstrom makes any sense for them, especially since he has term left and would solve their goaltending issues for a couple seasons. You would have to think this deal gets done, especially seeing as how there's history between the two teams with the Toffoli deal.

Saros is out there. He's 28, only one year left on the deal ($5M). Similar pedigree but having a down season so as a team I think you'd wonder if making a mid-season trade for him will get you to the playoffs when you probably need to play .650 hockey to get it done.

[agulati]

Originally Posted by Robbob

Maybe NJ changed things after he asked Marky to waive. Maybe they thought they could pull a fast one and Conroy would just accept. So many unknowns and just speculation at this point.

The wording by Seravelli as to the reasoning of why this isn’t likely to be revisited, makes it possible that something of this sort could have happened

[dissentowner]

Here is my understanding on the retention thing, Conroy has the power to do whatever he likes as far as the roster goes including any retention without getting Murray Edwards involved. Others have said this as well including Pat Steinberg who is more connected to the team than any of us. I highly doubt Edwards was a factor in this deal at all.

[Southside]

If retention is the issue maybe a third team could close the gap.

[Paulie Walnuts]

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

I expect Edwards is okay with retaining on expiring contracts, but not on longer ones. Which handcuffs Conroy when it comes to weaponizing cap space. If Holtz and significant draft capital (ie NJD 2024 1st) were on the table, that’s a huge missed opportunity for this franchise. Goalies almost never get back premium returns in mid-season trades.

That type of return for a goalie is nuts, especially a goalie who is 34 who has been injured a few times this year.

If everything is decided, NTC waived etc, and the only hold up would be the extra year of retention I would hope the management team is banging down ownerships door.

Holtz or Mercer shouldn't really matter. You are getting a big piece back.