[Trade] Elias Lindholm to VAN for Kuzmenko, Brzustewicz, Jurmo, 2024 1st, cond 2024 4th

[Goriders]

Originally Posted by devo22

Huberdeau - Sharangovich - Kuzmenko
Zary - Kadri - Coronato
Mangiapane - Backlund - Coleman
Pelletier - Schwindt - Pospisil

maybe bump Pospisil to the second line, put Duehr on the 4th line and let Coronato play heavy AHL minutes instead, I don't know. But certainly not ideal down the middle. Wouldn't be surprised to see the likes of Rooney, Jones or Pettersen get a chance at some point, or maybe they can get a C back in a deal or pick one up on waivers.

I like your lineup. Think I’d try and keep the Kadri line intact. Maybe form a kid line with Pelletier/Schwint and Coronato. But give them 3rd line minutes.

Guess that’s the least disruptive move is shifting Sharongovich to center. Hopefully improves offence out of our first line and powerplay without tailing off too much on the defensive side of things.

Should be interesting to see how it works out. I see a mangiapane dump in the offseason to make room for younger forwards. Not many old guys left.

[gvitaly]

Over the last 2 seasons Lindholm and Kuzmenko have similar numbers:
Kuzmenko 124GP, 47G, 95P, +8
Lindholm 129GP, 31G, 96P, +2

So Lindholm has 1 more point and 16 less goals, in 5 more games played. That's why I don't see the Flames being much worse as a result of the trade. If Kuzmenko finds some chemistry with Huberdeau or Kadri this trade is going to look great.

[Bingo]

Originally Posted by gvitaly

Over the last 2 seasons Lindholm and Kuzmenko have similar numbers:
Kuzmenko 124GP, 47G, 95P, +8
Lindholm 129GP, 31G, 96P, +2

So Lindholm has 1 more point and 16 less goals, in 5 more games played. That's why I don't see the Flames being much worse as a result of the trade. If Kuzmenko finds some chemistry with Huberdeau or Kadri this trade is going to look great.

That completely ignores the defensive side of the puck and the PK.

[Paulie Walnuts]

Originally Posted by Bingo

That completely ignores the defensive side of the puck and the PK.

Those player cards tell a different story about his defensive play 5 on 5.

PK is a different story, but it seems like he was propped up by Tkachuk and Gaudreau.

[TOfan]

Originally Posted by Pekkerhead

My guess is the next trade or two will bring back a serviceable centre.

Not sure if I agree here.

Flames should be in asset acquisition mode. Positional needs are secondary at this point, especially for the remainder of this season. The Flames should be acquiring the best assets they can get their hands on.

Build a critical mass then use those assets to fill holes were needed. The Flames have had a long history of ‘serviceable centres’ and it hasn’t gotten them to where they should want to go.

[Flamesfan05]

Originally Posted by Goriders

No idea. But someone will have to replace Lindholm. Or at least become a center. I’d use the rest of the season as a tryout. If no one can pull it off I’d find one in free agency as a stop gap

Yes, lots of combinations to try with Pelletier coming back also

[Flamesfan05]

Originally Posted by Bingo

That completely ignores the defensive side of the puck and the PK.

Yeah Kuzmenko has to provide more offense to compare.

If he just produces what Lindholm did this year, it would be a huge disappointment and he’d be gone after his contract

[Bingo]

Originally Posted by Paulie Walnuts

Those player cards tell a different story about his defensive play 5 on 5.

PK is a different story, but it seems like he was propped up by Tkachuk and Gaudreau.

So which of Tkachuk or Gaudreau is the defensive wizard that props up other players?

No debate on his numbers though ... they've been bad since the team lost the ability to transition (with key players heading out) and spending more time in their own zone.

His defensive impacts by numbers just don't stand out anymore.

[iggyloob12]

Originally Posted by devo22

Huberdeau - Sharangovich - Kuzmenko
Zary - Kadri - Coronato
Mangiapane - Backlund - Coleman
Pelletier - Schwindt - Pospisil

maybe bump Pospisil to the second line, put Duehr on the 4th line and let Coronato play heavy AHL minutes instead, I don't know. But certainly not ideal down the middle. Wouldn't be surprised to see the likes of Rooney, Jones or Pettersen get a chance at some point, or maybe they can get a C back in a deal or pick one up on waivers.

I think that's pretty close but Coronato doesn't deserve more ice time than Pospisil... unless the latter isn't 100% from his injury.

[getoverit]

Lindholm was more then just points, his defencive part of the game and zone time due to faceoffs have a big role. Our team is already struggling defensively wiht the amount of break aways and odd man rushes we give up each game

Originally Posted by gvitaly

Over the last 2 seasons Lindholm and Kuzmenko have similar numbers:
Kuzmenko 124GP, 47G, 95P, +8
Lindholm 129GP, 31G, 96P, +2

So Lindholm has 1 more point and 16 less goals, in 5 more games played. That's why I don't see the Flames being much worse as a result of the trade. If Kuzmenko finds some chemistry with Huberdeau or Kadri this trade is going to look great.

[gvitaly]

Originally Posted by Bingo

That completely ignores the defensive side of the puck and the PK.

IMO Lindholm wasn't playing at the same level defensively that he played on the Gaudreau - Tkachuk line. Backlund still gets the toughest matchups.

Here's the xGA/60 of lines that played more than 100mins for the Flames
Huberdeau - Lindholm - Sharangovich 3.17
Mangiapane - Lindholm - Sharangovich 2.71

Compared to
Zary - Kadri - Pospisil xGA/60 1.86
Mangiapane - Backlund - Coleman 2.39
Huberdeau - Backlund - Coleman 2.56

Now I'm not saying Lindholm is bad defensively, but his defensive impact gets slightly overblown. Is he better than Kuzmenko defensively? Most likely. That said there's a good chance we won't notice the difference especially if Kuzmenko is producing.

[gvitaly]

Originally Posted by Bingo

So which of Tkachuk or Gaudreau is the defensive wizard that props up other players?

No debate on his numbers though ... they've been bad since the team lost the ability to transition (with key players heading out) and spending more time in their own zone.

His defensive impacts by numbers just don't stand out anymore.

Based on analytics of the 2021-22 season it was Tkachuk. That said it was a very small sample size where Gaudreau - Lindholm - Tkachuk didn't play together.

[Bingo]

Originally Posted by gvitaly

IMO Lindholm wasn't playing at the same level defensively that he played on the Gaudreau - Tkachuk line. Backlund still gets the toughest matchups.

Here's the xGA/60 of lines that played more than 100mins for the Flames
Huberdeau - Lindholm - Sharangovich 3.17
Mangiapane - Lindholm - Sharangovich 2.71

Compared to
Zary - Kadri - Pospisil xGA/60 1.86
Mangiapane - Backlund - Coleman 2.39
Huberdeau - Backlund - Coleman 2.56

Now I'm not saying Lindholm is bad defensively, but his defensive impact gets slightly overblown. Is he better than Kuzmenko defensively? Most likely. That said there's a good chance we won't notice the difference especially if Kuzmenko is producing.

No major argument from me ... he wasn't playing all that well ... but then nobody really has defensively this year.

But it's pretty hard to rationalize taking Lindholm out of the 1C spot and replacing him with a winger that is known to be somewhat suspect defensively, and losing one of your two key PK forwards doesn't downgrade your hockey team.

[Paulie Walnuts]

Originally Posted by Bingo

So which of Tkachuk or Gaudreau is the defensive wizard that props up other players?

No debate on his numbers though ... they've been bad since the team lost the ability to transition (with key players heading out) and spending more time in their own zone.

His defensive impacts by numbers just don't stand out anymore.

Didn’t call them defensive wizards.

During the dream season the Jfresh cards had Lindholm at like 71% while Johnny and Matthew had 90 plus.

I like the player and said we would get a haul for him which we did. He just isn’t a guy who can carry a line which is what you want from a #1C

[dino7c]

Lindholm sucked this season at both ends

[Bingo]

Originally Posted by Paulie Walnuts

Didn’t call them defensive wizards.

During the dream season the Jfresh cards had Lindholm at like 71% while Johnny and Matthew had 90 plus.

I like the player and said we would get a haul for him which we did. He just isn’t a guy who can carry a line which is what you want from a #1C

I think he needs to play with good players to be elite, so totally agree .. he's not the driver.

Calgary just didn't have the components to build a top line with what they had left after the big two walked.

[Redrum]

Originally Posted by Bingo

So which of Tkachuk or Gaudreau is the defensive wizard that props up other players?

To be fair, they gave him the 40 goals, which gave him the Selke nomination. And by reading some of the comments from a few months ago during Lindy's negotiations; that definitely gave a few people here the impression that he's up there with Bergeron/Kopitar/etc.

[Paulie Walnuts]

Originally Posted by Bingo

I think he needs to play with good players to be elite, so totally agree .. he's not the driver.

Calgary just didn't have the components to build a top line with what they had left after the big two walked.

Agreed.

I guess when you look at things without the emotion attached to it Tkachuk leaving might be one of the most devastating things to happen to this franchise.

Finding top end talent is hard.

[the-rasta-masta]

Originally Posted by Paulie Walnuts

Agreed.

I guess when you look at things without the emotion attached to it Tkachuk leaving might be one of the most devastating things to happen to this franchise.

Finding top end talent is hard.

I think it's more Gaudreau leaving. I think there's a chance Tkachuk stays if they were able to keep the band together.

[Bingo]

Originally Posted by Paulie Walnuts

Agreed.

I guess when you look at things without the emotion attached to it Tkachuk leaving might be one of the most devastating things to happen to this franchise.

Finding top end talent is hard.

And I for one was wrong.

I thought he was a secondary player boosted by Gaudreau.