[Trade] Elias Lindholm to VAN for Kuzmenko, Brzustewicz, Jurmo, 2024 1st, cond 2024 4th

[Bingo]

I think with a trade like this you have to look at it two ways.

Many saying it will take many years to evaluate, and I get that, but that also misses the point.

None of us know the market. Conroy may have turned down 3 1st round picks from the Rangers (he didn't) because ... reasons.

But we all heard the basic model was a 1st round pick, a NHL player that could be a cap dump, and a prospect (likely not the team's best prospect). If we disagree that that was the model, fine.

But if it was then you look at this deal accordingly.

1st Round Pick
(check, but adjusted down by say 3 draft spots because they are dealing with the 1st ranked team).

NHL player / Camp Dump
(check, and a two way caveat. He has an extra deal which is a minus, but he arguably has value to move next year which is a plus ... overall plus)

Prospect
(check, HB is not the Canuck's top prospect, but I think for many of us and most outsiders he exceeds the value of the prospect component in this deal vs expectations)

That on it's own is a very good deal vs the model in my mind. A slight hit on the 1st round pick, an uptick on the established player, and an uptick on the prospect.

Then you add in another prospect with some upside, and another pick?

That's where Conroy did very well in his first major trade, and easily exceeded expectations.

[CorsiHockeyLeague]

Originally Posted by Bingo

Prospect
(check, HB is not the Canuck's top prospect, but I think for many of us and most outsiders he exceeds the value of the prospect component in this deal vs expectations)

I dunno about that... I mean, I think it's fine, and I don't think it was realistic to expect them to trade either of their last two first rounders but I do think Podkolzin would have been the right guy to get for a number of reasons.

[CliffFletcher]

Originally Posted by sureLoss

The Athletic has a great writeup about how the trade was negotiated and came together.

https://theathletic.com/5243090/2024...shared_article

This was interesting:

On Tuesday morning, as he prepared to travel back to Vancouver from midseason meetings, Allvin upped the ante with an offer that had Conroy thinking, “Wow, now we’re really talking.”

Kuzemko was already part of the deal. Safe to assume the 1st was as well, since that was in Conroy’s initial ask.

So how did VAN up the ante? I doubt Jurmo or a 4th elicits “Wow” from Conroy. I’m guessing the add was Brzustewicz (or an upgrade from a weaker prospect to Brzustewicz). Wow indeed. Just shows that when you have a motivated buyer, it can pay to make them sweat a bit.

[Rikster]

Originally Posted by Bingo

I think with a trade like this you have to look at it two ways.

Many saying it will take many years to evaluate, and I get that, but that also misses the point.

None of us know the market. Conroy may have turned down 3 1st round picks from the Rangers (he didn't) because ... reasons.

But we all heard the basic model was a 1st round pick, a NHL player that could be a cap dump, and a prospect (likely not the team's best prospect). If we disagree that that was the model, fine.

But if it was then you look at this deal accordingly.

1st Round Pick
(check, but adjusted down by say 3 draft spots because they are dealing with the 1st ranked team).

NHL player / Camp Dump
(check, and a two way caveat. He has an extra deal which is a minus, but he arguably has value to move next year which is a plus ... overall plus)

Prospect
(check, HB is not the Canuck's top prospect, but I think for many of us and most outsiders he exceeds the value of the prospect component in this deal vs expectations)

That on it's own is a very good deal vs the model in my mind. A slight hit on the 1st round pick, an uptick on the established player, and an uptick on the prospect.

Then you add in another prospect with some upside, and another pick?

That's where Conroy did very well in his first major trade, and easily exceeded expectations.

If I was a Flames fan, I'd be nervous that in such a critical time for the organization it has a rookie GM.

That aside, trades are about leverage and the Flames had all of the leverage so you would expect that they would "win" any deal they make.

Hopefully for Flame fans, Kuzmenko's play picks up dramatically into next season so that the return for him is better than what his worth is today because I expect that the Flames will deal him rather than resign him when is contract expires.

Maybe he's learned that an off season of training at a condo in Bali wasn't such a good idea.

The player I'll keep an eye on is Brzustewicz who until he blew out his shoulder when he was 16 was considered elite and ahead of his peers such as Layne Hutson.

The Athletic ran an article on him last year which was a great read.

From that article:

That lone season with Riedel and Oakland, he posted unheard-of numbers for a defenceman in Michigan’s AAA circuit, rattling off 111 points in 66 games. Back then, before the NCAA changed the recruiting rules and you could commit at any age, he was already committed to the University of Michigan.

“I’d never before and still to this day have never coached a player who had (Brzustewicz’s) poise and the patience,” said Riedel, who was also an OHL scout at the time. “He would just wait until that last second constantly. His vision was elite. The buzz on him was really that he was elite. I don’t think I’ll see (100 points by a defenceman) again. And it was legitimate. There were no phantoms. I watched every goal back and he just had the puck on a string, he was like a point guard.”

Given the year he is having in the OHL, not sure why the Americans passed on him for the World Junior tournament, but of all the pieces leaving Vancouver in the deal for Lindstrom, he was the one I wish wasn't included.

[Jiri Hrdina]

Originally Posted by Rikster

Given the year he is having in the OHL, not sure why the Americans passed on him for the World Junior tournament, but of all the pieces leaving Vancouver in the deal for Lindstrom, he was the one I wish wasn't included.

The answer to this is easy: The Americans had a unusual number of highly skilled dmen. What they lacked was dmen with physicality and defensive acumen. So they needed to balance that out in terms of the type of D they were bringing.

[Bingo]

Originally Posted by CorsiHockeyLeague

I dunno about that... I mean, I think it's fine, and I don't think it was realistic to expect them to trade either of their last two first rounders but I do think Podkolzin would have been the right guy to get for a number of reasons.

Getting what some have called their third best prospect and a guy currently making noise filling the net in the OHL exceeded my expectations.

Isn't Podkolzin heading towards diminished expectation levels now?

[Bingo]

Originally Posted by Rikster

If I was a Flames fan, I'd be nervous that in such a critical time for the organization it has a rookie GM.

That was a concern coming into the season for sure. Getting less so by the day now though.

Originally Posted by Rikster

The player I'll keep an eye on is Brzustewicz who until he blew out his shoulder when he was 16 was considered elite and ahead of his peers such as Layne Hutson.

The Athletic ran an article on him last year which was a great read.

From that article:

That lone season with Riedel and Oakland, he posted unheard-of numbers for a defenceman in Michigan’s AAA circuit, rattling off 111 points in 66 games. Back then, before the NCAA changed the recruiting rules and you could commit at any age, he was already committed to the University of Michigan.

“I’d never before and still to this day have never coached a player who had (Brzustewicz’s) poise and the patience,” said Riedel, who was also an OHL scout at the time. “He would just wait until that last second constantly. His vision was elite. The buzz on him was really that he was elite. I don’t think I’ll see (100 points by a defenceman) again. And it was legitimate. There were no phantoms. I watched every goal back and he just had the puck on a string, he was like a point guard.”

Given the year he is having in the OHL, not sure why the Americans passed on him for the World Junior tournament, but of all the pieces leaving Vancouver in the deal for Lindstrom, he was the one I wish wasn't included.

Read a few suggestions that the US can be pretty political with roster construction for players that leave their program for the CHL.

[Badgers Nose]

Originally Posted by Bingo

I think with a trade like this you have to look at it two ways.

Many saying it will take many years to evaluate, and I get that, but that also misses the point.

None of us know the market. Conroy may have turned down 3 1st round picks from the Rangers (he didn't) because ... reasons.

But we all heard the basic model was a 1st round pick, a NHL player that could be a cap dump, and a prospect (likely not the team's best prospect). If we disagree that that was the model, fine.

But if it was then you look at this deal accordingly.

1st Round Pick
(check, but adjusted down by say 3 draft spots because they are dealing with the 1st ranked team).

NHL player / Camp Dump
(check, and a two way caveat. He has an extra deal which is a minus, but he arguably has value to move next year which is a plus ... overall plus)

Prospect
(check, HB is not the Canuck's top prospect, but I think for many of us and most outsiders he exceeds the value of the prospect component in this deal vs expectations)

That on it's own is a very good deal vs the model in my mind. A slight hit on the 1st round pick, an uptick on the established player, and an uptick on the prospect.

Then you add in another prospect with some upside, and another pick?

That's where Conroy did very well in his first major trade, and easily exceeded expectations.

Well articulated and totally accurate summary.

Conroy took a very good pouty rental and turned that into a haul of assets.

It probably makes us worse short term and that is also good. We are out of the playoff picture so let’s have a mini tank for the rest of the season.

[ComixZone]

A couple of days later and I still feel the exact same.

I love this trade. I love what it says about what Conroy is doing with the team, and that he is aware of the damage that was done to the depth of the organization through the last few years.

Kuzmenko also becomes an intriguing asset. Steinberg said the Flames are open to flipping him, if the opportunity arises (citing what Kuzmenko can do down the stretch here). There were some insider conversations around Chicago being a team that wanted Kuzmenko...so, there's just more opportunity and options for the Flames moving forward (including keeping Kuzmenko and having him be a talented top six winger).

Brzustewicz is going to be really interesting to watch. Our defensive depth in the system now looks like:

LHD:
Poirier
Morin
Kuznetsov
Solovyov
Jurmo

RHD:
Brzustewicz
<pretty much nothing else>

That's an improvement.

I've also seen a decent amount of "oh, well scouts think this draft falls apart after 20", and meh whatever.

We're getting to the point where we can start thinking about who could be in the Canucks range. Henry Mews? Michael Hage? Tanner Howe? Trevor Connelly? Maxime Masse? Emil Hemming? Cole Hutson? Or what if they move up a handful of slots and end up with an Adam Jiricek, Aron Kiviharju, Andrew Basha, Sacha Boisvert?

Conroy is creating opportunities for this team to improve that they didn't have before. I love this trade. Get those scouts working and preparing for the draft.

[lazypucker]

No RHD after Bruz?

Weegar says hi.
Andersson says hi.

[PuckSlap]

I sure hope we can find the all star, in the mix of picks

Sent from my SM-S918W using Tapatalk

[ComixZone]

Originally Posted by lazypucker

No RHD after Bruz?

Weegar says hi.
Andersson says hi.

...I mean, I was listing prospects pretty exclusively. Hence the lack of Hanifin, Tanev, Kylington, Gilbert. Totally meant in the development system, my bad.

[ForeverFlameFan]

Originally Posted by lazypucker

No RHD after Bruz?

Weegar says hi.
Andersson says hi.

Prospects*

[HighLifeMan]

Originally Posted by CorsiHockeyLeague

I dunno about that... I mean, I think it's fine, and I don't think it was realistic to expect them to trade either of their last two first rounders but I do think Podkolzin would have been the right guy to get for a number of reasons.

I think Podkolzin would have been absolutely the wrong guy to get for a number of reasons outside of his draft pedigree which means nothing at this stage.

1. He's a left shot winger which is an area of significant surplus for this organization
2. He has extremely pedestrian production at every level and he hasn't shown projectable top six upside
3. He has an easy out to leave, make a good living, and play in his home country if things don't work out in short order here

Brzu makes so much more sense for this organization in my mind, and to me Conroy certainly targeted the correct guy.

[Bonded]

Feels like Conroy should have been able to Lekkermakki after that Monahan trade lol

[Andrew]

dennis wideman is an assistant coach in kitchener i believe. could the flames have tapped for info?

[united]

Paraphrasing some notes from this morning's 32 Thoughts:

- Believes Bruins were in on Lindholm but would have only done a deal with an extension in place.
- Flames and Lindholm were about $1 million apart in talks throughout. Conroy presented a reasonable offer from the start rather than start negotiations with a lowball.
- Suggests that privately Lindholm was ready for a change of scenery.

- Flames happy to re-sign Hanifin but requested he inform them whether he is staying long-term by the end of the All-Star break.

- Toronto remains very interested in Tanev.
- Ottawa likely circles back to Tanev in the off-season.
- Quite a few other teams calling about Tanev as well.

- Nothing to report on either Vladar or Markstrom but the Flames are listening.

[Calgary4LIfe]

Can't quote Rikster:


Thanks for the additional info on Brzustevicz.


As for Conroy being the rookie the GM - yes, I can understand that take, unquestionably. However, I wanted Conroy in that chair personally because I felt that a rebuild would probably be coming sooner rather than later, and Conroy has shown himself over the past decade in being a good evaluator of talent, especially at the amateur level, and has worked extensively on scouting.


Speaking of the past decade - he has had his hands in everything in the organization. Started under Feaster in all areas of the organization, continued under Burke, and spent a lot of time with Treliving. He has been getting groomed for this since the day he retired. That's why I have a tonne of faith in him. I can definitely understand that people feel that he is a 'rookie GM', and I guess you never really know until he starts making moves, but it was the decade of being groomed and surrounded with knowledgeable people who made good moves AND poor ones, which only help him learn.


From the outside, it can definitely look like the "old boys club" thing. Conroy paid his dues. He will make mistakes - everyone does - but I bet that he will turn out to be a good GM, and so far, so good. I am hoping that he is successful enough to become the Flames' longest tenured GM (and yes, I am aware of Fletcher's 19.5 years). If he breaks that record, that means the Flames have been a pretty well-run team with a decent amount of success.

[mile]

Conroy on the Barnburner right now: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RPSau3p8b1g

[tony-soprano]

Originally Posted by united

Paraphrasing some notes from this morning's 32 Thoughts:

- Believes Bruins were in on Lindholm but would have only done a deal with an extension in place.
- Flames and Lindholm were about $1 million apart in talks throughout. Conroy presented a reasonable offer from the start rather than start negotiations with a lowball.
- Suggests that privately Lindholm was ready for a change of scenery.

- Flames happy to re-sign Hanifin but requested he inform them whether he is staying long-term by the end of the All-Star break.

- Toronto remains very interested in Tanev.
- Ottawa likely circles back to Tanev in the off-season.
- Quite a few other teams calling about Tanev as well.

- Nothing to report on either Vladar or Markstrom but the Flames are listening.

Looked like he was ready to cry when being interviewed by HNIC rep at the All-Star game.