[Trade] Elias Lindholm to VAN for Kuzmenko, Brzustewicz, Jurmo, 2024 1st, cond 2024 4th

[topfiverecords]

Originally Posted by Elkyiv

I don't know if already asked but why doesn't Conroy trade Kuzmenko in a month to someone else? Why wait until next year?

He has a year left. Would need someone to actually want him for a whole year and not just a playoff run and let him go.

[Enoch Root]

Originally Posted by SuperMatt18

Honeslty it will be interesting to see what happens after another season between Brz and Willander.

Not that different in size. Both RH shot dmen.

But I'd argue that Brzustewicz play and production in their Draft+1 has been way more impressive than Willander.

Prospects are hard to read and it's a small sample size in their draft+1 so far but will be interesting to see how each guy is looked at once we have another season of play to look at.

Because to me Willander has been somewhat disappointing for a top 12 pick in the NCAA and Brz has impressed.

It's only one data point, and it's far from a perfect one, but here are their NHLe's for comparison:

Willander: 18
Brzustewicz: 39

I mean, there's enough distance there to take notice.

[Mr.Coffee]

Another couple thoughts / question I had/have;

1) would this trade have been possible at the draft? At the beginning of the year? In November? Is the timing of this material to the value?

2) does this reset the “market” for the other UFAs? Does this set higher expectations? The trade market at the draft was horrendous but this seems to be a much better “market”. The strategy of wait to the deadline / pressure pay off?

[Aarongavey]

Originally Posted by ben voyonsdonc

Interesting debate - what is the bigger value gap: five places in the bottom of the first round (24th OA/29th OA) or 32 places between the 3rd and 4th round?

The first round is definitely the bigger value gap.

[Flamesfan05]

I like the trade simply because I do not think Lindholm is worth any more than a 1st and changes

Also like a chance on Kuzmenko. What do they have to lose with him? He can walk next year if it doesn’t work.

[Lanny_McDonald]

Originally Posted by ben voyonsdonc

Here you go: https://thehockeynews.com/nhl/vancou...y-2024-edition

Here's the pre-season ranking / review for contrast.

https://thehockeynews.com/news/2023-...couver-canucks

Read into it what you will.

[topfiverecords]

Originally Posted by Jay Random

No, there isn't. If the Canucks make the WCF, their first-round pick will be no earlier than 29th.

Oh right. Forgot about CF losers locking in at 29/30.

[Blaster86]

Hard not to be more highly thought of with the year he's having in the OHL.

[stemit14]

Originally Posted by Mr.Coffee

Another couple thoughts / question I had/have;

1) would this trade have been possible at the draft? At the beginning of the year? In November? Is the timing of this material to the value?

2) does this reset the “market” for the other UFAs? Does this set higher expectations? The trade market at the draft was horrendous but this seems to be a much better “market”. The strategy of wait to the deadline / pressure pay off?

Picks have their highest possible value the day of the draft. At that point, roster players at at their lowest value. It’s the inverse at the trade deadline. Seems strange that NHL GMs would fluctuate so much but that’s the truth of it. A great example is how many first round picks in the 2023 draft were traded the summer before or at the trade deadline but absolutely no one was willing to make trades at the draft. Conroy himself was trying to get more picks with some of the 2024 UFAs but no one was biting.

[Groot]

Originally Posted by Lanny_McDonald

Here's the pre-season ranking / review for contrast.

https://thehockeynews.com/news/2023-...couver-canucks

Read into it what you will.

They never ranked them in that article. But they ranked him 3rd less than a month ago. Favorite to be CHL Defenceman of the Year is not a B prospect, sorry.

[boogerz]

I've never seen the kid play, but Jurmo is apparently the Finnish version of Sean Day. Good skater and good tools, but no toolbox and doesn't use his size. Heralded as a future star at age 18, but hasn't improved his game much since then. We'll see how true that is if he comes to North America, but we should probably temper expectations on him becoming an NHL defensemen or being anything more than a toss-in from the Nucks.

[InternationalVillager]

All we need is Hunter B to be our Adam Fox and Honzek/Zary/Pelts/Coronato/2024 1st to really develop and we got ourselves a team! Pretty excited for the future!

[Flamesfan05]

Originally Posted by Lanny_McDonald

Here's the pre-season ranking / review for contrast.

https://thehockeynews.com/news/2023-...couver-canucks

Read into it what you will.

If you go with preseason, Kuzmenko was worth a 1st+

Just saying

[CSharp]

Originally Posted by GullFoss

Was 69 taken? Or is 96 just more subtle?

Idon't think any team would allow 69 to be worn. It'll be pretty hilarious for someone brave enough to put on a jersey with 69 on their back!

[Calgary4LIfe]

Craig Conroy strikes again!


So much for "the naive rookie GM". Flames are going the rebuild route, and i love it.


What did I want from a Lindholm trade? A 1st, a good prospect, and a player for cap purposes. Conroy made sure that cap player has a high ceiling (great candidate for a reclamation project), the prospect has a higher ceiling than I thought he would be able to get, and the 1st is a 1st of course. Then he gets another pretty good prospect, and a conditional 4th (can become a 3rd)?



Not every pick works out. Not every prospect works out. Some are going to look great, and then fizzle out. Some picks never work from the beginning. A number of them end up as NHL'ers, and are solid depth. I am not looking for depth. I am looking for franchise-level players, so the more at bats you get, the more chances you get to hit a home run.


Brzustewicz's comparable sure sounds a lot like Morin - a prospect I am very high on. Sounds a lot like a more offensive Morin, but not quite as nasty, though he engages physically. Maybe he pans out, maybe he doesn't. However, he is having quite the season this year, so it sounds like a great 'at bat' at getting a future franchise piece.


Jurmo sounds like a guy with a lower ceiling, but still a legitimately solid prospect with a fairly high floor. He (along with Brzustewicz) also fill 2nd biggest hole in the Flames prospects (and soon, the entire organization) - lack of defencemen. Getting two promising prospects is really reassuring in that regard.


1st round pick - heck, who knows how good it can be?


4th(3rd) round pick? Might be nobody. Might be the next Gaudreau, or Brodie.



Kuzmenko - I like him. He has a great shot, and he has a mind for the offensive side of the game. Sounds like he had issues with the new system and ended up clashing a little there, and that's fine. I look at the work that Huska has done so far with Sharangovich and even Huberdeau now, and it gives me hope that he finds a way to rebound. If he doesn't, well, that's a cost of doing business. If he does rebound, chances are he probably gets moved next season as another part of the rebuild, and if he rebounds here, he may very well return another huge piece - this is an underrated part of the trade.


Also, my thoughts on his refusal to wear the pride jersey - sure, you don't want to see it. However, there is a difference from not wanting to wear it if you are a Russian player coming from Russia, vs some dude who grew up here. In Russia, you are attacked for being gay. It is not socially acceptable. Sometimes you have to give these guys the space to adjust to differing values. Also, maybe it isn't that he doesn't want to support LGBTQ values, but he is scared to do so. Here, who is going to say or do anything against you? In Russia, where he has family, maybe he does. Maybe he is gay himself, and definitely wants to make sure nobody outs him in Russia? There could be so many reasons. I am not saying that your opinion of him is necessarily wrong - but it could be wrong or at least, misguided. One last counter-argument: The best way to get rid of bigotry and racism, is for the other side to embrace the bigot or racist person. Worst case scenario is that he doesn't like the LGBTQ community - but growing up in Russia, how many has he ever met? Probably zero? Living here, he gets to meet more, and maybe he will even become friends with some - that would never happen in Russia. It wasn't so very long ago that anyone who wasn't heterosexual was labled as a 'deviant' here in North America. Give people from outside more liberal and progressive nations an olive branch, rather than a slap on the face, and I bet it will be easier for them to realize that they have a lot more in common with these 'deviants' than they realize.



Who is the loser in the trade? I think Vancouver makes out well at the same time. They held onto their top-end prospects, and it was a shame that Conroy couldn't pry one of them out. Had Lindholm not gone so cold, he probably could have. We all know that Lindholm can put up elite numbers if he plays with elite talent, and I am sure he will see a nice rebound in points. Good for him. He gets his chance at a bigger payday again, but I would be surprised if it is as high as the original Flames' (rumoured) offer.


The biggest loser in all of this is... Markstrom. He has done everything to keep this team as a competitor. He is good friends with Lindholm, and Lindholm was the top centre on the team. It must be deflating for him, probably for Backlund who just re-signed here, and probably deflating for everyone else in the room. It is what it is, however. Had Lindholm played better in the last 2 seasons, Flames might have been a playoff team still. Certainly not all on him, but the point stands.



Finally, one way to look at having multiple picks that may not get thought of enough. Think back to the Gaudreau draft. Flames had two second round picks. Button had Gaudreau on a 'special list' alongside Kucherov. He decided to draft Wotherspoon with that second, second round pick, and immediately after Kucherov was taken. I imagine Button was angry with himself, especially with hindsight. He made sure that Calgary drafted Gaudreau with their next pick (missing a 3rd round pick, so he had to sit through waiting for the 4th round, probably fuming and on pins and needles for Gaudreau). Two lessons from that: Firstly is that there is no such thing as too many picks. Secondly, is that you can find franchise-altering players well beyond the first round. Thirdly, is that he probably has learned his lesson and next time he will probably switch the order! Imagine getting Kucherov AND Gaudreau in the same draft. Who knows what happens with time, and how the Flames rise and fall over the years, but maybe it would have led them to a Stanley Cup in one of the last 10 years? Panarin would probably had the Flames higher than just in the final four of his decision - maybe he picks Calgary instead of Chicago, and the Flames would have won a cup?


I wrote a number of paragraphs on this subject, but this post is long enough. Just keep collecting picks Conroy! Love it! Can't wait to see what else transpires, and the draft is going to be damn exciting.


I was also going to end on a joke saying: "I can't believe Conroy didn't do full retention on Lindholm to maximize assets!" - but someone did actually complain about it. Surprised me. This was a great trade. No need for retention when taking Kuzmenko anyway (who, if he rights himself, could be traded for way more than what the retention would have bought anyway)


Flames have 3 retention spots, and I hope they use those spots shrewdly. They may not have to retain on any player they trade out, but they can also accumulate assets by acting as the middleman. Conroy specifically brought this up with the Zadorov trade. Toronto didn't get him because the assets offered for the retention wasn't good enough. I believe Conroy, and if there is a deal to be made either by retaining on players, or acting as the middleman between two other teams that make sense for the Flames, he has the green light to do it.


Exciting times ahead!



Something to look forward to next time the Flames play is watching the new guy. Gives us something to look forward to in the short term, so it works out nicely.

[Goriders]

Seems like a pretty good deal for us. Lindholm didn’t look like he really wanted to be here and hadn’t done much in the last 10-15 games.

1st and 4th round draft picks. Two prospects and a player who can step in and add offense.

Good job in my mind.

[Enoch Root]

Originally Posted by ben voyonsdonc

Interesting debate - what is the bigger value gap: five places in the bottom of the first round (24th OA/29th OA) or 32 places between the 3rd and 4th round?

It is an interesting question, but I think it's definitely the 1st round. However, that also depends someone on the year - in some seasons, there could be a real drop-off in talent, somewhere in the 1st round, and those picks might not have the value difference that they do in other years.

But I think the best way to look at it is, what does it take to move up either of those gaps?

For a late first, to move up 5 spots (for the sake of argument) probably costs you a 2nd round pick. Moving from a 4th round pick to a 3rd, probably costs you another 4th.

[Naitix]

Way better return than Horvat last year

[Chingas]

Originally Posted by GullFoss

Was 69 taken? Or is 96 just more subtle?

Inflation hitting hockey too.

[Johnny Makarov]

I was listening to Friedman on 960 about an hour ago and he was saying that the Canucks might have trouble signing Brzustewicz....???

Will we have that problem now?