Alberta Politics & Government Thread 3.0

[Fuzz]

More politics where it doesn't belong.

[Fuzz]

Like, I know we are proud of our syphilis status as a province, but maybe lets try more of the sex ed thing, not less?

[Locke]

Originally Posted by Fuzz

Like, I know we are proud of our syphilis status as a province, but maybe lets try more of the sex ed thing, not less?

Since most of it is happening in Edmonton, I think we've got to go with the Catholic Church on this one.

Abstinence.

The fewer Edmontonians the better. Dont let them procreate.

Can you put sterilization chemicals in the water? We should look into that.

[wwkayaker]

But we are running out of water. Time to build a wall

[Slava]

Originally Posted by edslunch

Parental Choice plans are out. My takes:
- I think Smith is sincere in her support for trans-adults, including increased support resources and specifically hiring at least one surgeon for gender-altering surgeries, which currently can't be done in Alberta.
- Parental consent for changing names and pronouns for 0-15, notification for 16-17. I know this is a contentious issue but I feel it's overblown on both sides of the debate. It does nothing for the 'good' parents, and may put kids at odds with their 'bad' parents. On the other hand there is nothing stopping the child and their friends from referring to themselves as they want, dressing as they want, nor would it stop a child confiding with a teacher. It's not a snitch line that I'm aware of. I think it's a very symbolic topic that maybe isn't the hill to die on.
- No gender altering treatments 0-15 period, with parental and medical approval for 16-17. I understand the argument that teens are immature, hormonal, confused, etc. and shouldn't make permanent life-altering decisions at that age. Parental approval is appropriate, but why not leave it to the medical professionals to determine if treatments at a younger age are appropriate in some cases.
- Parental opt-in for gender, sexuality, and sex education. This is a big one for me. Sex education is basic foundational knowledge for an important part of everyone's life. The current opt-out is a reasonable position, opt-in is not IMO.
- Ministry review of all 3rd part sex education material for age-appropriateness. Sure, material for all subjects ought to be vetted, but will this be done by qualified professionals or will the minister decide what is and isn't appropriate? We saw how laughably wrong they got that for the social studies curriculum.
- Encouraging/requiring(?) sports leagues to have divisions for female-at-birth-only athletes and other arrangements such as co-ed divisions for transgendered females. Is this even an issue here? What leagues does it apply to? What are the age limits?

I may have missed some things.

https://twitter.com/user/status/1752814944716734935

The problem with the consent required for kids under 16, is that not all parents are cool with this. So, now if the child wants to have different pronouns or a different name it can be done at their direction in the school. Forcing those kids to have their parents consent opens the door for that conflict (and unfortunately in some cases it is conflict). It’s a bad idea and I feel bad for those kids, because they already have enough to deal with.

And the “opt-in” for sex-ed is just ridiculous. I don’t even think I need to explain why that’s just plain stupid.

[Dion]

Got an email from the ANDP telling me they are having an in person town hall tomorrow night at the local library here in High River. It's been hosted by Shannon Phillips and the party wants to hear directly from Albertans on this important issue. They want to know how you feel about leaving the CPP..

https://www.albertasfuture.ca/event-.../cpp-townhall2

[Fuzz]

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/edmon...101053?cmp=rss

So after reading this, I'd be interested to know how many of David Parker's demands were met here? This is setting up a great fear campaign for the next election, that's for sure. And it'll work very well, sadly.

I didn't notice any mention of additional funding for mental health supports for these children she's soooo concerned for, who will now have to navigate a more hostile environment and threat of parental retaliation. But why would she, we already know what this is really about.

Smith said she didn't want to encourage or allow children to alter their biology or growth because she said it would pose a risk.

"Making permanent and irreversible decisions regarding one's biological sex while still a youth can severely limit that child's choices in the future," she said.

"Prematurely encouraging or enabling children to alter their very biology or natural growth, no matter how well intentioned and sincere, poses a risk to that child's future that I, as premier, am not comfortable with permitting in our province."

Not your business, now, is it? Medical decisions for medical professionals, not politicians. But I get how you don't want to let experts decide anything. She literally has ZERO expertise to make this decision. She may as well have flipped a coin.

[calgarygeologist]

Originally Posted by Fuzz

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/edmon...101053?cmp=rss

So after reading this, I'd be interested to know how many of David Parker's demands were met here? This is setting up a great fear campaign for the next election, that's for sure. And it'll work very well, sadly.

I didn't notice any mention of additional funding for mental health supports for these children she's soooo concerned for, who will now have to navigate a more hostile environment and threat of parental retaliation. But why would she, we already know what this is really about.

Not your business, now, is it? Medical decisions for medical professionals, not politicians. But I get how you don't want to let experts decide anything. She literally has ZERO expertise to make this decision. She may as well have flipped a coin.

They did announce record breaking funding for mental health and addiction last year which includes $45M for children of which $14M is dedicated to school programs. Also $92M in funding to kid's mental health non profits in Alberta over 3 years.

[Fuzz]

Cool, so at least they'll have supports as they navigate through an entirely unnecessary set of arbitrary rules created by politicians because a messiah demanded it of her.

[puffnstuff]

Arbitrary age limits set on health care by politicians.

Putting on my evil hat, could see that whole 'we are going to get a surgeon to come here' thing being a feint. Sure get one, then put so many limits on them so nothing gets done. And, because theres a surgeon here they then wont cover any out of province surgeries.

[Harry Lime]

One thing that the pre-parental rights environment did effectively was remove God from the education system. There was a pronounced lack of judgement and righteous retribution. Any kid that voices dissent from the UCP vision, now, will face the possibility of physical and emotional abuse from the true believer parents out there, and it will all occur behind the curtain.

When adolescent suicides increase, will it be fair to call any UCP member currently sitting, a baby killer?

[Ozy_Flame]

Anyone know the depth of consultations they did for this legislation, and who was involved? Also, who wasn't?

I would hope physicians like Dr. Kristopher Wells and Dr. Joe Raiche were consulted heavily, as well as a committee of pediatric psychiatrists, community and social service reps, the public school boards, as well as parents whose children have gender affirmation journeys of their own.

Also, would be really really really sad to see any consultations with religious officials, party donors, and Take Back Alberta puritans.

[edslunch]

Originally Posted by Harry Lime

One thing that the pre-parental rights environment did effectively was remove God from the education system. There was a pronounced lack of judgement and righteous retribution. Any kid that voices dissent from the UCP vision, now, will face the possibility of physical and emotional abuse from the true believer parents out there, and it will all occur behind the curtain.

When adolescent suicides increase, will it be fair to call any UCP member currently sitting, a baby killer?

Better than being a groomer /s

[Slava]

Originally Posted by Ozy_Flame

Anyone know the depth of consultations they did for this legislation, and who was involved? Also, who wasn't?

I would hope physicians like Dr. Kristopher Wells and Dr. Joe Raiche were consulted heavily, as well as a committee of pediatric psychiatrists, community and social service reps, the public school boards, as well as parents whose children have gender affirmation journeys of their own.

Also, would be really really really sad to see any consultations with religious officials, party donors, and Take Back Alberta puritans.

There was no consultation. I know that’s what they’re trotting out, but there’s seemingly no one who was consulted and surely no one was asked for actual input. I suppose you could consider the UPC convention, but that’s complete garbage to call that consultation in any respect.

[curves2000]

I don't have children so this policy doesn't really affect me personally but one thing I can't understand is why there is SUCH pushback from parental consent and notification in specific areas? The state doesn't own or control the children, it's the parents who are responsible to raise children.

I fully understand that parental consent and notification may result in outing trans kids, causing undue hardship and trouble for teens who may be gay and such. It's an awful situation that shouldn't happen but it's just a reality of the situation.

On the reverse, if I have a child who may better identify with a particular gender, want a specific pronoun, is considering gender changing surgery, is trouble coping with being gay etc and the province does not inform the parents, is that right? Do we really want the government to make decisions on what's in the best interest of the child? Would the government take responsibility if my child committed suicide and I wasn't notified, thus not allowing me the opportunity to spare no expense, time and trouble to ensure that MY CHILD get's the best care available. Parents will go to extreme lengths to assist and help their child, leaving no stone unturned. Does the government?

I get that we live in different times than before but do we sometimes forget what happens when we give the government control over certain things, like parental control.

The same governments that allowed the absolute horrible scenarios that happened with residential schools are suppose to be looking after the best interest of the child? Was the state not looking after the best interest of the child then, as recently as the late 90's?

Do we not have an insane amount of issues with children services for abusers, sexual assault convicts, lawful and unlawful hospital apprehensions within specific communities. We have a bail and prison system that allows the sickest of individuals to be let out to commit the same offenses over and over again to children and we wonder why it happens? We have foster home and care issues where children are treated like flat out garbage and only kept around long enough for the money train to run out of fuel, then tossed onto the street at 18.

The same government's are then suppose to fully be looking after the child's best interest by NOT informing me if my child may or may not be having serious issues at school which COULD put them in a position to harm themselves?

It seems like with this issue some people have WAY TOO MUCH faith, hope and confidence in random government administration instead of their own parental and gut instincts. The vast majority of parents would be able to handle the described issues at school much better than the government would in my personal opinion.

[GGG]

Ignoring the trans component for a moment the notification for every class that contains sex Ed and opt in rather than opt out for instruction. Thats going to increase teen pregnancies.

[Whynotnow]

Originally Posted by curves2000

I don't have children so this policy doesn't really affect me personally but one thing I can't understand is why there is SUCH pushback from parental consent and notification in specific areas? The state doesn't own or control the children, it's the parents who are responsible to raise children.

I fully understand that parental consent and notification may result in outing trans kids, causing undue hardship and trouble for teens who may be gay and such. It's an awful situation that shouldn't happen but it's just a reality of the situation.



On the reverse, if I have a child who may better identify with a particular gender, want a specific pronoun, is considering gender changing surgery, is trouble coping with being gay etc and the province does not inform the parents, is that right? Do we really want the government to make decisions on what's in the best interest of the child? Would the government take responsibility if my child committed suicide and I wasn't notified, thus not allowing me the opportunity to spare no expense, time and trouble to ensure that MY CHILD get's the best care available. Parents will go to extreme lengths to assist and help their child, leaving no stone unturned. Does the government?

I get that we live in different times than before but do we sometimes forget what happens when we give the government control over certain things, like parental control.

The same governments that allowed the absolute horrible scenarios that happened with residential schools are suppose to be looking after the best interest of the child? Was the state not looking after the best interest of the child then, as recently as the late 90's?

Do we not have an insane amount of issues with children services for abusers, sexual assault convicts, lawful and unlawful hospital apprehensions within specific communities. We have a bail and prison system that allows the sickest of individuals to be let out to commit the same offenses over and over again to children and we wonder why it happens? We have foster home and care issues where children are treated like flat out garbage and only kept around long enough for the money train to run out of fuel, then tossed onto the street at 18.

The same government's are then suppose to fully be looking after the child's best interest by NOT informing me if my child may or may not be having serious issues at school which COULD put them in a position to harm themselves?

It seems like with this issue some people have WAY TOO MUCH faith, hope and confidence in random government administration instead of their own parental and gut instincts. The vast majority of parents would be able to handle the described issues at school much better than the government would in my personal opinion.

If a child chooses not to inform their parents there is likely a very, very good reason for them not wanting them to know. This will force, in some cases, kids to remain closeted, which is far more unhealthy than them being allowed to express themselves in a safe space at school without fear of being outed at home to abusive or deeply religious parents.

It’s not like we are giving over government control to raising kids, all we are doing is making the school a safe place to possibly express themselves differently than might be tolerated in their home. I think that’s a far, far cry from government control.

[GGG]

Originally Posted by curves2000

I don't have children so this policy doesn't really affect me personally but one thing I can't understand is why there is SUCH pushback from parental consent and notification in specific areas? The state doesn't own or control the children, it's the parents who are responsible to raise children.

I fully understand that parental consent and notification may result in outing trans kids, causing undue hardship and trouble for teens who may be gay and such. It's an awful situation that shouldn't happen but it's just a reality of the situation.

On the reverse, if I have a child who may better identify with a particular gender, want a specific pronoun, is considering gender changing surgery, is trouble coping with being gay etc and the province does not inform the parents, is that right? Do we really want the government to make decisions on what's in the best interest of the child? Would the government take responsibility if my child committed suicide and I wasn't notified, thus not allowing me the opportunity to spare no expense, time and trouble to ensure that MY CHILD get's the best care available. Parents will go to extreme lengths to assist and help their child, leaving no stone unturned. Does the government?

I get that we live in different times than before but do we sometimes forget what happens when we give the government control over certain things, like parental control.

The same governments that allowed the absolute horrible scenarios that happened with residential schools are suppose to be looking after the best interest of the child? Was the state not looking after the best interest of the child then, as recently as the late 90's?

Do we not have an insane amount of issues with children services for abusers, sexual assault convicts, lawful and unlawful hospital apprehensions within specific communities. We have a bail and prison system that allows the sickest of individuals to be let out to commit the same offenses over and over again to children and we wonder why it happens? We have foster home and care issues where children are treated like flat out garbage and only kept around long enough for the money train to run out of fuel, then tossed onto the street at 18.

The same government's are then suppose to fully be looking after the child's best interest by NOT informing me if my child may or may not be having serious issues at school which COULD put them in a position to harm themselves?

It seems like with this issue some people have WAY TOO MUCH faith, hope and confidence in random government administration instead of their own parental and gut instincts. The vast majority of parents would be able to handle the described issues at school much better than the government would in my personal opinion.

So you are approaching it from the mindset of a loving parent who will support their child and get them the best medical and psychological treatment they need. Those kids and parents are not affected by this law.

Now this law probably does have to balance self harm that isn’t prevented from a parent not being told versus self harm from kids not telling anyone or abuse from parents from disclosure. I’d suggest that suppressing people from knowing and informing parents who will abuse their children of a result of this information likely causes more harm then the edge case where a kid isn’t telling their parents but would tell a teacher who will tell their parents.

Do you believe there is a child who under this new law is more likely to get the help they need than under the previous law? If a child won’t tell their parents why would they tell a teacher who will tell their parents. At least under current legislation they have told someone.

A lot of populist legislation makes sense in the common cases that don’t need to be dealt with. Loving parents who care and support their children will be able to help their child. Why would anyone be against parents helping their child. The logic ignores the edge case where the parents are abusive.

[edslunch]

Originally Posted by GGG

Ignoring the trans component for a moment the notification for every class that contains sex Ed and opt in rather than opt out for instruction. Thats going to increase teen pregnancies.

Realistically, the trans-related issues, while dominating this ‘parental rights’ policy, will affect a tiny number of students (unacceptable no matter what the numbers are) vs. the numbers who will be affected by the opt-in clause. Proper sex-education is important for a healthy adult life and I bet many children of ‘parents rights’ supporters get little to none of it.

[Whynotnow]

Originally Posted by edslunch

Realistically, the trans-related issues, while dominating this ‘parental rights’ policy, will affect a tiny number of students (unacceptable no matter what the numbers are) vs. the numbers who will be affected by the opt-in clause. Proper sex-education is important for a healthy adult life and I bet many children of ‘parents rights’ supporters get little to none of it.

Excellent point and this will likely get lost in the shuffle.