Hart, McLeod, Dube, Foote, Formenton charged with sexual assault

[GFG#1]

Originally Posted by Funkhouser

Seeing how the NHL will (likely) not touch these guys, and the trial won't be until 2026(ish), what is the likelihood these 4/5 sign in the KHL in the next few months?

Their hockey career is only 10 years. I doubt they will wait idle for 2 years without playing.

I suspect they will have to surrender their passports and will not be able to leave the Country. Likely be under some form of house arrest, which will en dup counting as time served....

[powderjunkie]

Originally Posted by renny

There is a possibility that Dube was suicidal or something and his mental healthcare providers let the Flames know that he needs to go on indefinite leave. Imagine if they had said “he’s out on indefinite leave” and Dube wasn’t charged and the public found out that he was suicidal and the Flames didn’t release their statement.

Okay, I imagined it, and it still seems completely ####ed that they would use language that potentially hints at that scenario.


Why don't you try imagining an individual laying in a hospital bed in the psych ward...do you think the following thought crosses their mind: "gee, I really hope my employer implies that I'm here in any public statement they make, and doesn't just say something vague like personal reasons!"

[Jiri Hrdina]

Probably not even a PR team thing. I imagine that release was handled by the Flames' legal team.

[PepsiFree]

Originally Posted by Jiri Hrdina

Probably not even a PR team thing. I imagine that release was handled by the Flames' legal team.

People have the funniest view of PR in their head.

I get that some people want to find as many throats to choke as possible (strangely not Dube’s though, but OK) but the PR team is a weird choice given the circumstances. Might as well go after the social media person at that point for pressing “send” on the post.”

[liamenator]

Originally Posted by Jiri Hrdina

Probably not even a PR team thing. I imagine that release was handled by the Flames' legal team.

It's just one (informed) opinion, but my partner, who is an employment lawyer, is skeptical that anyone in Flames legal would have endorsed, let alone encouraged, using the mental health line in the initial statement.

[powderjunkie]

Originally Posted by Jiri Hrdina

Probably not even a PR team thing. I imagine that release was handled by the Flames' legal team.

Then I am even more offended that my tax dollars are subsidizing such expensive incompetence.

[topfiverecords]

Originally Posted by Monahammer

I don't think the legality or word choice really even needs to be questioned hard here.

In PR there's generally a single goal: don't make your organization a talking point or news story through the news releases you let out (unless you're expressly trying to). In this case they chose different words than their peers, and the result is a lot of public scorn. I don't think it's useful to debate whether or not the public is right in feeling this anger- but I think it's pretty clear they do.

Is that not then a failure of the flames PR team? I think it is.

The public is angry about absolutely everything these days. Most of the time irrationally.

[Scroopy Noopers]

Originally Posted by Monahammer

Sure, that's immaterial. The PR team still made a mistake then. It's their job to control the public image of the franchise not Dube's.

What’s immaterial? Your post was about how the flames release was different than Philly and NJ… I stated the most logical reason why that may be. But that’s now immaterial.

[Bingo]

Originally Posted by PepsiFree

People have the funniest view of PR in their head.

I get that some people want to find as many throats to choke as possible (strangely not Dube’s though, but OK) but the PR team is a weird choice given the circumstances. Might as well go after the social media person at that point for pressing “send” on the post.”

Yeah I'm just not on the witch hunt chain gang.

Seems pointless to me.

I feel pretty strongly that whoever made the decision internally did what they thought was best at the time in managing all the moving parts (would Dube be charged? is he guilty? how much support does the team show the player? is mental health caused by being charged valid? did they even know he was going to implicated?)

That's a tough day for any department with a lot of things to balance, and none of it applies to a historical play book that they could reference.

At the end of the day 5 hockey players did something bad enough to now be charged. We will see how this shakes out.

The organization at worst had a misstep in how they worded a tough situation.

We live in a society of outrage now, so I'm not surprised, but I see little point in joining it.

[Buff]

Originally Posted by CorsiHockeyLeague

Some of you guys who aren't lawyers seem pretty ready to try to get WAY into the weeds and parse the meaning and intent underlying press statements by people who do this for a living. Hell I'm a lawyer and even I don't want to guess how much went into selecting specific words; could be lots to read into, could be nothing, I don't know because I don't do this specific type of law and could only really speak at a high level. This isn't even law as much as practice and unless you do this on a day to day basis I wouldn't try to guess at what X or Y step or statement means by reading between the lines.

Maybe you should watch Law & Order like the rest of us.

Hey, can someone invite Corsi to the watch party?

[Canada 02]

"Quick to judge, quick to anger, slow to understand"

[MBates]

Originally Posted by GFG#1

I suspect they will have to surrender their passports and will not be able to leave the Country. Likely be under some form of house arrest, which will en dup counting as time served....

There may be some differences in standard practices in Ontario versus Alberta, but that said there should be no reason any of these individuals would have any travel restrictions imposed on them as a condition of release, nor would they be expected to be on any form of house arrest.

They have all voluntarily attended without incident to subject themselves to the jurisdiction of the court. One even flew from overseas to do so.

I would expect conditions would be minimal such as having no contact with the complainant and not going to her home / work / school.

[CorsiHockeyLeague]

Originally Posted by Monahammer

I don't think the legality or word choice really even needs to be questioned hard here.

In PR there's generally a single goal: don't make your organization a talking point or news story through the news releases you let out (unless you're expressly trying to). In this case they chose different words than their peers, and the result is a lot of public scorn. I don't think it's useful to debate whether or not the public is right in feeling this anger- but I think it's pretty clear they do.

Is that not then a failure of the flames PR team? I think it is.

I wasn't talking about the Flames press release, I was talking about non-lawyers trying to parse the difference between wording among the statements issued by defence counsel. I wouldn't know what to read into those and I'm more qualified than most in this thread (and still far less qualified than some).

[cam_calderon]

Wake up babe, new MBates post just dropped on CP.

[FanIn80]

Originally Posted by Canada 02

"Quick to judge, quick to anger, slow to understand"

It's not just slow to understand. They don't even understand that there's anything they need to understand.

[Torture]

Originally Posted by liamenator

It's just one (informed) opinion, but my partner, who is an employment lawyer, is skeptical that anyone in Flames legal would have endorsed, let alone encouraged, using the mental health line in the initial statement.

Exactly. Even if Dube came to the Flames and said "I need a mental health leave" a lawyer would have suggested "Dube is out indefinitely for personal reasons, no further comment". This is exactly what the Flames did with Kylington, so why did they feel the need to clarify this one was for mental health reasons?

There's no world where a lawyer says 'you have to say he's out for mental health reasons'. That was a choice, and a very questionable one.

[Sutter_in_law]

Originally Posted by Flame On

True, but any more than you know that it wasn't? And guess which he's been charged with, a mistake, or rape?

[PepsiFree]

Originally Posted by Torture

Exactly. Even if Dube came to the Flames and said "I need a mental health leave" a lawyer would have suggested "Dube is out indefinitely for personal reasons, no further comment". This is exactly what the Flames did with Kylington, so why did they feel the need to clarify this one was for mental health reasons?

There's no world where a lawyer says 'you have to say he's out for mental health reasons'. That was a choice, and a very questionable one.

And there’s no world where PR just does whatever it thinks is best outside of legal’s recommendation or endorsement.

[Philly06Cup]

Some tidbits:

Carter Hart's lawyer statement expressly says the allegations are false. That is stronger than the other four statements, which say they will defende their innocence. --> Could be his lawyer is more bold than others, or maybe something something pizza.

New rumors coming out that the Flyers were trying to shop Hart this last offseason. --> Gives credibility to the theory that execs, all execs, knew about the incident and that it would potentially blow up.

Lots of push right now for the Flyers org to pay for restitching for anyone who has a Hart jersey. This happened with the New England patriots and Aaron Hernandez.

On the hockey front, Hart is the highest profile player of the lot. All of them are RFAs; his qualifying offer is 1yr/~4M. If they don't qualify him, he walks. Maybe he is found innocent; maybe public sentiment eventually softens. He was on track to be an elite player. On the other hand, as it stands now, what would be the public outcry if he is qualified, and is that worth it. Plenty of shart players have been given second chances, but is this one too far. The trial probably won't happen until 2026, so there won't be any resolution by the time they have to qualify him. Take a moral stand, or do what might be best for your hockey team.

The new management regime has stressed a change in their locker room culture, moving out fratboy types Hayes and De'angelo, and "I have don't believe in pride" Provorov. Dube, Foote, McLeod, much easier to cut -- Quite the jar of pickle juice with Hart.

[iggyloob12]

As much as I don't like the team's initial statement, it's too simplistic to blame it on the PR folks alone. I work in the industry and have experience dealing with sensitive issues and crisis management. You make your recommendations to leadership but they almost always have influence on the final wording, as does legal in certain cases.

Dube's implication with the junior team was a known issue they would have been monitoring and should have considered when crafting their original statement, regardless of what the player told the team about his leave request.

Someone with the team thought it was a good idea to connect the statement to mental health vs. leaving it ambiguous. It's hard to know where the blame lies from the outside, but lots of people should have known better (and maybe some said so and were not listened to).