Hart, McLeod, Dube, Foote, Formenton charged with sexual assault

[Red Potato Standing By]

I think it is very good probability that he is one of the five, I also think in my opinion that he has told the Flames he is innocent, and they are treating it as such till proven otherwise ( people are presumed innocent until proven guilty) so based on that assumption I don’t see how the Flames did anything wrong saying it is a mental health absence.

[Wormius]

Originally Posted by Strange Brew

People don’t like the statement because it is almost exactly the same as the Kylington statement at training camp. In fact, it was even a little more descriptive than that one. And it ended up with players answering questions about mental health and how the team is really supporting Dube etc.

It was a misstep and you can see how the other teams handled it better. There was no really no reason to mention his mental health at all. But it’s certainly not a coverup IMO.

I understand the Flames are in a tricky spot here as an employer. They’re basically just passing along the info that Dube gave them for taking a leave. Does an employer start digging into the reason with them? Imagine if you said you needed to take a mental health leave from work and your boss was like, “we’ve heard things, is that really why?”

[Textcritic]

Originally Posted by Strange Brew

People don’t like the statement because it is almost exactly the same as the Kylington statement at training camp. In fact, it was even a little more descriptive than that one. And it ended up with players answering questions about mental health and how the team is really supporting Dube etc.



It was a misstep and you can see how the other teams handled it better. There was no really no reason to mention his mental health at all. But it’s certainly not a coverup IMO.

Yeah, that's totally fair. And I can see this as a misstep insofar as how it led to teammates expressing their support for Dube—it's compromising. But, what it is not, is damning. This is certainly not something for which the team should be raked over coals. The over-reactions to the team statement have been ridiculous.

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[Flamesfan05]

Originally Posted by Wormius

I understand the Flames are in a tricky spot here as an employer. They’re basically just passing along the info that Dube gave them for taking a leave. Does an employer start digging into the reason with them? Imagine if you said you needed to take a mental health leave from work and your boss was like, “we’ve heard things, is that really why?”

For normal people, unless it’s a few sick days, you would need paper work for leave of absence and the employer would have said absolutely nothing because it’s private

[Textcritic]

Originally Posted by PeteMoss

Seems like a wild connection. This is Calgary Flames message board and we are discussing the information the Flames are releasing. I'm pretty sure everyone understands the Flames PR impact is about 0.0000001% of the same issue as what the players are accused of.

I don't think it's a wild connection at all. The point was not the reach of misinformation, but rather the rationale behind finding conspiracies in things we consider to be insidious and difficult to rarionalise. It's precisely the same sort of thinking at work for those who are frothing over the Flames press release about Dube.

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[kyuss275]

Originally Posted by Flamesfan05

He was the first that came out so the PR was probably mishandled

But reality is if you were involved in this, it’s more than likely you are having mental issues right now

Of course he is having mental issues right now. His whole world is crashing right before his eyes . It was still worded poorly considering why he might be having mental health issues at this moment. I look no farther than the live intermission panel of last game. Leslie, Francis and sarich giving him huge praise for taking care of mental health issues while also mentioning kylington battle with mental health in the same breath .Asking everybody to wish him well , while leaving out that his mental health issues might stem from a rape allegation. They obviously didn’t know about the rape allegations but nobody is going to be able to convince me the flames organization didn’t know.

[Squirrel]

Many facts not yet confirmed but it’s hard not to connect the dots.

But generally speaking we should not equate a person’s feelings of guilt and stress from alleged crimes they’ve committed with actual mental illness.

[PepsiFree]

Originally Posted by PeteMoss

Seems like a wild connection. This is Calgary Flames message board and we are discussing the information the Flames are releasing. I'm pretty sure everyone understands the Flames PR impact is about 0.0000001% of the same issue as what the players are accused of.

But is generating almost as much conversation for something 0.0000001% as impactful.

It’s not just what the Flames are releasing, it’s why they’re releasing it, what they knew, what their intent was, what they believe, the damage it’s done to other players and fans who reacted to it, etc.

It’s a bit ridiculous. You have to see that.

[Textcritic]

Originally Posted by kyuss275

... They obviously didn’t know about the rape allegations but nobody is going to be able to convince me the flames organization didn’t know.

Yes, it is always best to lead with a conclusion and insulate ourselves from the possibility it might be wrong.

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[Scroopy Noopers]

Originally Posted by Flamesfan05

For normal people, unless it’s a few sick days, you would need paper work for leave of absence and the employer would have said absolutely nothing because it’s private

Your employer doesn’t even get to see it. It goes straight from your doctor to your benefit provider.

[Jiri Hrdina]

Originally Posted by Squirrel

Many facts not yet confirmed but it’s hard not to connect the dots.

But generally speaking we should not equate a person’s feelings of guilt and stress from alleged crimes they’ve committed with actual mental illness.

Difference between mental illness and mental well being.
Someone's feelings of guilt and stress (including from alleged crimes) can absolutely create a mental crisis, including risk of suicide.

[Scroopy Noopers]

Originally Posted by Wormius

I understand the Flames are in a tricky spot here as an employer. They’re basically just passing along the info that Dube gave them for taking a leave. Does an employer start digging into the reason with them? Imagine if you said you needed to take a mental health leave from work and your boss was like, “we’ve heard things, is that really why?”

Yeah I can imagine calling an employment lawyer immediately.

[dustygoon]

Originally Posted by Textcritic

Yeah, that's totally fair. And I can see this as a misstep insofar as how it led to teammates expressing their support for Dube—it's compromising. But, what it is not, is damning. This is certainly not something for which the team should be raked over coals. The over-reactions to the team statement have been ridiculous.

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Agree. Putting yourself in the teams' shoes and knowing Dube was on that team: The team is stuck. The conversation with Dube would be sensitive. Asking things like "were you involved? What did you do?" would have the agent and a lawyer calling if no charges filed. The flames could do their own investigation, but not sure that gets any further than the police nor the league. Treliving and Conroy were stuck.

There is not much the flames nor teammates could do other than take him at his word. The guy is under contract. So you support him as best you can without overtly taking a side until you know more. ####ty situation to find yourself.

[cam_calderon]

This is where I take issue with Bettman and the NHL's investigation. How, or why, did they fail to come up without anything?

[Jiri Hrdina]

Originally Posted by cam_calderon

This is where I take issue with Bettman and the NHL's investigation. How, or why, did they fail to come up without anything?

In the case where there is a criminal investigation, that trumps a league one, and the league will wait for that investigation to complete itself before revealing anything on their end.
Which I think makes sense. Why would the NHL be in better position to complete this investigation than the actual police?

[Strange Brew]

Originally Posted by Wormius

I understand the Flames are in a tricky spot here as an employer. They’re basically just passing along the info that Dube gave them for taking a leave. Does an employer start digging into the reason with them? Imagine if you said you needed to take a mental health leave from work and your boss was like, “we’ve heard things, is that really why?”

There was no need to dig into the information at all, nor to pass along the reasons Dube gave them. If Dube wanted to express it was a mental health leave, it was entirely within his prerogative. He could have released a statement.

Now obviously the Flames had an inkling of what was going on here, pretty naive to think otherwise. Which is why I think the other teams handled it better with divulging less information.

The other weird thing that the Flames do (maybe other teams do this too) is that they either leak or publicly state that the leave is not related to substance abuse. I don't see why they do that either.

[taxbuster]

Just curious - and haven't seen it on this thread (but could have missed it): are there any players from that WJC team who aren't currently in the NHL other than Formenton?

[Wastedyouth]

Originally Posted by PepsiFree

It’s people who have had their brain broken by the internet. Low attention spans, low empathy, hungry for content. We’ve known about the scandal for so long that it isn’t exciting or worth “having a take” on anymore. The victim? Who cares! The real story is the specific wording on a 20-word tweet. Who KNEW? When did they KNOW? Is calling this “mental health” yet ANOTHER COVER UP??? Oh, if it is, I’ll sure be angry! And don’t forget, I’m the one who discovered this cover up FIRST!

We saw it with COVID. Worldwide pandemic? Not enough. Actual people dying? Boring. Must have global conspiracy to inject us all with 5G and control us. And I discovered it!!

I don’t know if it was always this way but people definitely seem to struggle with events happening in ways that don’t match the content they’ve over-consumed. I think there was even someone in this thread mad that they didn’t make public arrests like in the movies.

Hit the nail on the head here.

[cam_calderon]

Originally Posted by Jiri Hrdina

In the case where there is a criminal investigation, that trumps a league one, and the league will wait for that investigation to complete itself before revealing anything on their end.
Which I think makes sense. Why would the NHL be in better position to complete this investigation than the actual police?

Well, the financial means of the league and its owners would mean it could quite possibly devote more resources to an investigation than the LPD. Also, this whole saga has shown how incompetent that police force is, and it's blowing up big time on the NHL. It's a big hit to their image that guys involved in this have been cashing checks for years from its clubs.

Do you think it's a coincidence the Salt Lake stuff came out the same day? In hindsight I'm sure Bettman wishes they'd snuffed out the culprits much earlier.

[transplant99]

Originally Posted by cam_calderon

This is where I take issue with Bettman and the NHL's investigation. How, or why, did they fail to come up without anything?

Who said they failed to come up with anything?

There is/was a criminal investigation occurring simultaneously which would 100% be allowed to be completed before the league says a single word about all this.

It's the right way to do things.