Hart, McLeod, Dube, Foote, Formenton found not guilty of sexual assault

[Textcritic]

Originally Posted by pylon

...anytime the mental health card is played, it is automatically assumed sympathy is required, terms like stunning and brave need to start being thrown around etc.

That's your assumption. These terms were never part of any statements made by the team about Dillon Dube.

If the cause of his mental health issues are in fact stemming from involvement in this incident, which in fairness, we do not know yet... I'm sorry, but the statement "Dillon Dube is taking a leave of absence from the team for personal reasons." Is as far as that statement should read. Because in the mean time, a ton of people now have to eat crow, and look like ass-hats if he in fact is involved in this. How many people on this very board were tying the similarity of his situation to Kylingtons, and making very sympathetic statements.

Which is not the fault of the team. If Dube did in fact take a medical leave for mental health reasons—which seems like exactly what happened—then the team is not culpable for the conclusions people draw on the basis of their factual statement about this being the case.

Just as fast as people want to see people canceled for transgressions far smaller than these accusations, there's another side is just as quick to look like the most sympathetically, sympathizing sympathizer the second mental health is thrown out there.

I am not sure what this has to do with anything, since the Flames did nothing more than issue a very general press statement about Dube's absence from the team.

You are fooling yourself if you don't think the team doesn't know exactly what the gravity of this situation is.

I have never once suggested that the team doesn't know the gravity of the current situation. Of course they do—probably better than most. However, it is much more difficult connecting the dots between what we think the team knew, and what we believe they should have—or, even could have done about it. Even if the Flames knew that changes were impending (and it is entirely likely that they did not) they are also legally bound by what they can or cannot say publicly about it.

I know it's a knitpick, but words are important. Perception is important. And the way the Flames statement reads makes this seem entirely different than what it actually may be.

Maybe to you, it did. It sure didn't to me. If you are offended by the statement, that's a "you" problem—it sure is not the fault of the team. Again, there is nothing within what was in the press release from which to draw anything about the team's knowledge, nor their feelings about the possibility of impending criminal charges in the London investigation. It's just not there.

[chedder]

With Bean and Pascall in the Flames front office, I have a hard time believing the team didn't know this day was coming for a couple of years.

[TrentCrimmIndependent]

Originally Posted by Ashasx

Maybe if they were 13-14 year old kids, I could understand that position.

They weren't kids. They were 18-19 year old adults. I think we should hold them to a higher standard.

Not excusing anything that transpired but have you met a 17-18 year old?

They don't comprehend the gravity of the consequences of their actions because their values are entirely out of whack at that point in life. Little life experience to draw on to truly "know" anything, still developing physiologically and cognitively, and social desirability front of mind before anything else. Fitting in is often seen as life or death to adolescents (hence the correlation with a spike in suicide and suicidal ideation in that age bracket) because they don't yet understand how big the world is and how little their 17-18 year old peer group will ultimately matter in the larger picture. There are certain things that only life experience can register in a person and at that age that understanding hasn't even begun to be formulated.

Young adults often have a surface knowledge of right and wrong, but they don't yet comprehend it. You do irresponsible things at that time because you haven't lived the consequences of those things, be it health, financial, legal/criminal, etc. But most don't wind up in a situation as severe as this. But I can see how individuals not directly involved may have lingered rather than immediately noping out on guys they perceived to be their close buds.

At the end of the day they need to be held accountable but yeah, it's really tough to argue that kids that age truly grasp the severity of their actions in the moment. They may have a gut feeling about it, but that reasoning isn't yet reinforced with lived experience to actually know like you suggest.

[Locke]

Originally Posted by GullFoss

Maybe Dube was the pizza guy.

[GullFoss]

A typical 18 year-old today is like a 15 year-old from 2004. They're very coddled and thus much more socially inept and less mature.

This is explored in that book Coddling of the American Mind.

[Jiri Hrdina]

Originally Posted by GullFoss

Fwiw Dube doesnt have the same rapist-like vibe the other four give off.

Wtf?
G-damn there’s some stupid stuff posted on here today

[GirlySports]

Not only were they young kids but they were also there representing Canada. That adds a whole additional layer of how to act and keeping quiet. It's not you and your buddies on a Saturday night at the bar.

[GullFoss]

Originally Posted by Locke

If I walked in on by friends gang raping at age 19 and was told it was consensual and even though I didn't think it was consensual, I willfully blinded myself into believing it was consensual.

And then years later I realized it was in fact a gang rape, I was captain of the team, I brought shame to my family/country, the victim suffered years of trauma in part because of my in-action...and I could have stopped it and brought the victim justice years earlier...

I might have some mental health issues.

[dino7c]

Originally Posted by GirlySports

Not only were they young kids but they were also there representing Canada. That adds a whole additional layer of how to act and keeping quiet. It's not you and your buddies on a Saturday night at the bar.

They should have had eyes on them the entire time from the mentors and highers up.

[Goriders]

Well. It’s not looking good for Dube. I was hoping he was not involved. I guess everything at this point is an assumption. But it’s looking to be pretty obvious that the 5 guys who asked for leaves of absence will be the 5 accused.

Doubt we’ll see Dillon in a Flames jersey again.

[MrSector9]

Guys like this were the reason I quit playing hockey and all other team sports as a teen. Everyone wants to point fingers and act like they were never around someone capable of this type of behavior, but ANYONE that played on a team has played with someone they knew was a scumbag, either by their actions or their statements, and everyone would allow it to happen, no one would ever call them on their ####.

I am so sick of the "not an excuse but....." naw that is an excuse... they were young.... they were drinking....they wanted to not jeopardize their career so they kept quiet... lets face the fact, they are predators, scumbags and are willing to use anyone/anything around them to get ahead, why are you even remotely willing to make a statement like that for someone that cares nothing of you?

For everything positive team sports have instilled in me, it has also allowed me to see the evil in people, both directly and indirectly.

[Aarongavey]

Originally Posted by activeStick

It's only speculation but it sounds like the prosecution may be quite confident.

https://twitter.com/user/status/1750268671983849676

That is great news. I hope she gets all the support she needs.

[Locke]

Originally Posted by GullFoss

If I walked in on by friends gang raping at age 19 and was told it was consensual and even though I didn't think it was consensual, I willfully blinded myself into believing it was consensual.

And then years later I realized it was in fact a gang rape, I was captain of the team, I brought shame to my family/country, the victim suffered years of trauma in part because of my in-action...and I could have stopped it and brought the victim justice years earlier...

I might have some mental health issues.

Like I said many posts ago...I have a hard time believing that any regular girl would be willing to go down dirty with 5 random dudes.

So I'd probably call the Cops.

Regardless of who they were. With perhaps the exception of the Wu-Tang Clan.

[Hack&Lube]

How does these leaves of absences work? I know we got cap relief for Kylington. Does the $2,300,000 of Dube come off the books?

[Reggie Dunlop]

It's also okay to change an opinion when presented with new information. No need to double-down.

[CliffFletcher]

Originally Posted by pylon

However, anytime the mental health card is played, it is automatically assumed sympathy is required, terms like stunning and brave need to start being thrown around etc.

If we’re serious about addressing mental health, that will have to change. Many people who suffer from poor mental health are unsympathetic. Some are awful. We’re not going to make much progress if we only offer support to the sympathetic ones. Or pretend that everyone with mental health issues is stunning and brave. We don’t deny medical care to unpleasant people, and we shouldn’t deny mental health care to them either.

[Aarongavey]

Originally Posted by nfotiu

The AP article that is being picked up by espn and others isn't shy about tying the names to the charges.

https://www.espn.com/nhl/story/_/id/...ssault-inquiry



Also that quote gives a little insight into why the Flames aren't saying anything at this point.

This part seems a little eyebrow raising.

Imagine being so arrogant as to think you as an outside party should have a dialogue with the police to know what their process is. Incredible.

[dissentowner]

Originally Posted by Locke

Like I said many posts ago...I have a hard time believing that any regular girl would be willing to go down dirty with 5 random dudes.

So I'd probably call the Cops.

Regardless of who they were. With perhaps the exception of the Wu-Tang Clan.

It does happen. I am not saying it did in this case but in my younger years I did know a girl who got down and dirty with 8 guys at a house party and bragged about it afterward. Now this was the early 90's when there was this sexual freedom movement happening and many girls were proudly promiscuous. That girl ended up marrying another guy some of my friends hung with and said after they were married her sex drive became non existent so there has to be some mental issue there.

[Locke]

Originally Posted by dissentowner

It does happen. I am not saying it did in this case but in my younger years I did know a girl who got down and dirty with 8 guys at a house party and bragged about it afterward. Now this was the early 90's when there was this sexual freedom movement happening and many girls were proudly promiscuous. That girl ended up marrying another guy some of my friends hung with and said after they were married her sex drive became non existent so there has to be some mental issue there.

Huh. That sounds super healthy all the way around.

[Textcritic]

^
So, I could have lived without knowing any of that.

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