Israel declares war on Hamas

[undercoverbrother]

Originally Posted by Fuzz

I guess I meant more oversight than the guy in the field calling in an airstrike and 30 seconds later boom booms?

Yeah that's not really how it works, or shouldn't at any rate in this type of theatre.

We are on the same page and it's semantics at this point.

[blankall]

Originally Posted by Doctorfever

From you article.



Not sure where you got the idea that they want to move Palestinians there.

Also from the same article:

Katz, who was recently appointed Israel's foreign minister, showed his European counterparts two videos during the meeting, Borrell said.

The first promoted a rail infrastructure project connecting Gaza with the occupied Palestinian territory of the West Bank. The second showed a proposal to build an artificial island in the Mediterranean Sea off the Gazan coast that would serve as a commercial hub linking the Gaza Strip with the rest of the world.

I fail to see how any of that equates to genocide. In fact, both would likely be extremely positive developments for the people of Gaza, that would end their isolation and promote a stronger economy for them. I guess anything that changes their current situation of a locked in people who have no choice but to invade Israel is bad?

[Bagor]

Originally Posted by blankall

I fail to see how any of that equates to genocide. In fact, both would likely be extremely positive developments for the people of Gaza, that would end their isolation and promote a stronger economy for them. I guess anything that changes their current situation of a locked in people who have no choice but to invade Israel is bad?

Of course you would see creating for them their own Robben Island a "positive development".

Here's another alternative. A two state solution which many attendees yesterday thought was going to be a focal point of discussion as well as the ongoing slaughter, maiming and starvation of innocents.

What The EU and the world learned yesterday for the umpteenth time was that when it comes to having a conversation re addressing genocide, ethnic cleansing and the overall welfare of the people of Gaza Israel doesn't want to engage. It is would rather deliberately waste time by talking such nonsense as railway tracks to India.

And they're stating now that if Israel doesn't want to be part of the solution then they will move on.

One of the EU’s most senior diplomats has criticised the Israeli foreign minister for not properly engaging with a summit in Brussels designed to pave the way for a peace plan in the Middle East.

Josep Borrell, the EU’s high representative for foreign affairs, told reporters Israel Katz had come to the meeting to present plans for an artificial island off the coast of Gaza and a railway to India, concepts that had nothing to do with the peace talks.

Borrell said: “We had had the pleasure of watching two very interesting videos, one about an artificial island project to serve as a port … and another one about a project to build a railroad line linking the Middle East with India, which also seemed to us to be very interesting.

“I think the minister could have made better use of his time to worry about the security of his country and the high number of deaths in the Middle East and the high death toll in Gaza.”

The EU foreign policy chief has said he is determined to pursue a two-state solution in the Middle East, whether Israel is ready to participate or not.

"Peace is a very general objective, nobody would say they are against peace; in our view we should stop talking about peace in the Middle East but talk about specifics, about the two-state solution,” he said. “If Israel does not want the solution, it is going to be difficult for them to take part … but it does not stop others taking part.”

His remarks came a day after the Israeli prime minister, Benjamin Netanyahu, reaffirmed a hard line against the establishment of any Palestinian state on the grounds it would pose “an existential danger” to Israel.

Alluding to Israel’s stated objective of annihilating Hamas in its three-month-old war in the Gaza Strip, Borrell told reporters: “What are the other solutions they have in mind? Make all the Palestinians leave? Kill all of them? … The way they are destroying Hamas is not the way to do it. They are sealing the hate for generations.”

https://www.theguardian.com/world/20...in-middle-east

[Doctorfever]

Please correct me if I am wrong, but I thought Hamas has no interest in a two state solution. Perhaps some Gazans do, but the governing body does not.

Honestly can’t remember where I heard that, would be happy to be corrected.

[PepsiFree]

It doesn’t matter, as nobody is proposing a two-state solution with Hamas in charge of the Palestinian state.

[Doctorfever]

So the two state system will never exist with Hamas then? Hopefully they are eliminated, and the Palestinians can have their own state.

[PepsiFree]

Originally Posted by Doctorfever

So the two state system will never exist with Hamas then? Hopefully they are eliminated, and the Palestinians can have their own state.

Not under Hamas’ control. But as we’ve seen in countless conflicts in the past, the elimination of a group is not a necessary step in installing a new government.

The biggest obstacle to a two-state solution is the current Israeli government.

[Doctorfever]

Originally Posted by PepsiFree

Not under Hamas’ control. But as we’ve seen in countless conflicts in the past, the elimination of a group is not a necessary step in installing a new government.

The biggest obstacle to a two-state solution is the current Israeli government.

While I don’t totally disagree with you, but I would say the biggest obstacle to a two-state solution is Hamas. Since they are under control and a two-state solution will not happen while they are.

[PepsiFree]

Originally Posted by Doctorfever

While I don’t totally disagree with you, but I would say the biggest obstacle to a two-state solution is Hamas. Since they are under control and a two-state solution will not happen while they are.

You’re under the impression that a two-state solution will happen when they’re not? Based on what?

[Doctorfever]

Originally Posted by PepsiFree

You’re under the impression that a two-state solution will happen when they’re not? Based on what?

There is zero chance of it happening when Hamas is in power. There is a greater than zero chance when Hamas is eliminated.

[PepsiFree]

Originally Posted by Doctorfever

There is zero chance of it happening when Hamas is in power. There is a greater than zero chance when Hamas is eliminated.

Based on what?

[Doctorfever]

Originally Posted by PepsiFree

Based on what?

Math

[PepsiFree]

Originally Posted by Doctorfever

Math

I’m actually asking you what you’re basing your math on, not whether you’re using made up math or not. But I get the feeling you’re just doing your usual schtick, so never mind.

[Zevo]

Because if Bibi gets ousted there's a chance a more moderate government would be open to a two state solution.

Believe it or not, before Hamas attacked Israel, a lot of Israel were open to a two state solution. Admittedly, not sure that's still the case but I agree that there is zero chance with Hamas in control.

[PepsiFree]

Originally Posted by Zevo

Because if Bibi gets ousted there's a chance a more moderate government would be open to a two state solution.

Believe it or not, before Hamas attacked Israel, a lot of Israel were open to a two state solution. Admittedly, not sure that's still the case but I agree that there is zero chance with Hamas in control.

Identifying the biggest obstacle is not just about identifying any obstacle and calling it the biggest. If Israel is unwilling to consider a two state solution, they’re the biggest obstacle, because they hold all the power.

I get that people want to position Israel as this helpless victim that is beholden to the whims of Hamas, but we’ve pretty clearly seen that isn’t remotely close to the truth. Countries are trying to negotiate a two-state solution without Hamas at the table, that should tell you just about how significant of an obstacle they are.

It’s great that Israelis were supportive of a two-state solution ten years ago. But that doesn’t really help us today.

[Doctorfever]

Originally Posted by PepsiFree

Identifying the biggest obstacle is not just about identifying any obstacle and calling it the biggest. If Israel is unwilling to consider a two state solution, they’re the biggest obstacle, because they hold all the power.

I get that people want to position Israel as this helpless victim that is beholden to the whims of Hamas, but we’ve pretty clearly seen that isn’t remotely close to the truth. Countries are trying to negotiate a two-state solution without Hamas at the table, that should tell you just about how significant of an obstacle they are.

It’s great that Israelis were supportive of a two-state solution ten years ago. But that doesn’t really help us today.

If you were Israel, would you be interested in a two-state solution right now? If it were me, I would not be negotiating a two-state solution while a terrorist group is the government of that potential second state. It would not matter to me if the terrorists were sitting at the negotiating table or not.

Terrorists are eliminated, and not governing Gaza, now let’s talk.

[PepsiFree]

Originally Posted by Doctorfever

If you were Israel, would you be interested in a two-state solution right now? If it were me, I would not be negotiating a two-state solution while a terrorist group is the government of that potential second state. It would not matter to me if the terrorists were sitting at the negotiating table or not.

Terrorists are eliminated, and not governing Gaza, now let’s talk.

Israel already controls and has power over Gaza, has for decades, and has the international support to implement a two-state solution and remove Hamas from any sort of power.

Putting the elimination of Hamas first is an excuse not to do it. And again, that terrorist grouo would not be the government of that potential “second state” so that negotiation hangup is invalid. Your position isn’t fact-based.

You’ve never negotiated a single deal in your life that included conditions for the deal to go through or obstacles that needed to be cleared? Ever? Never even bought a house? Too bad.

[Doctorfever]

Originally Posted by PepsiFree

Israel already controls and has power over Gaza, has for decades, and has the international support to implement a two-state solution and remove Hamas from any sort of power.

Putting the elimination of Hamas first is an excuse not to do it. And again, that terrorist grouo would not be the government of that potential “second state” so that negotiation hangup is invalid. Your position isn’t fact-based.

You’ve never negotiated a single deal in your life that included conditions for the deal to go through or obstacles that needed to be cleared? Ever? Never even bought a house? Too bad.

They are currently working on removing Hamas from power.

Glad to see the support, I am sure it is appreciated!!

No matter what the timeline of the two-state solution is, Hamas needs to be eliminated.


Sure, I have bought several houses and recreational properties that had lots of negotiating, quite complicated actually. However, I don’t see the parallels to this.

[blankall]

Originally Posted by PepsiFree

Israel already controls and has power over Gaza, has for decades, and has the international support to implement a two-state solution and remove Hamas from any sort of power.

Putting the elimination of Hamas first is an excuse not to do it. And again, that terrorist grouo would not be the government of that potential “second state” so that negotiation hangup is invalid. Your position isn’t fact-based.

Do you actually believe this? Hamas has total control of what's going on inside Gaza and they have pledged to destroy Israel. Israel can't put a single person on the ground in Hamas without a major confrontation. Hamas receives billions from sources like Iran and Qatar. They cannot be easily removed. You can't just side step them.

The fact you've based your opinion on a set of facts so far removed from reality certainly gives insight into where your opinion is coming from. This is legit fantasy.

[Leondros]

Originally Posted by blankall

Do you actually believe this? Hamas has total control of what's going on inside Gaza and they have pledged to destroy Israel. Israel can't put a single person on the ground in Hamas without a major confrontation. Hamas receives billions from sources like Iran and Qatar. They cannot be easily removed. You can't just side step them.

The fact you've based your opinion on a set of facts so far removed from reality certainly gives insight into where your opinion is coming from. This is legit fantasy.

*Had total control. Israel controls virtually all of the North and has pushed into Daraj and Tuffah.