Owen Hargreaves to Man-U

[Addick]

Originally Posted by Thunderball

Actually, I'd say the opposite is true. The MLS is rather strong...

Toronto FC is a step in the right direction, but a very small one...

Putting the survival of the MLS itself aside there is still enough reason why the MLS will not do much help to the state of the game in Canada. What can a professional league possibly do to increase the strength of a weak footballing nation? I keep hearing people say that it will help us develop better players and give them a place to develop, but that is incorrect. In order to have a professional league you need to have fully developed and quality players!!! How is a professional league a place for players to develop into professional quality players when they have to make a professional club in the first place?

The CSA and Canadian footy supporters are saying that we need local professional leagues for our players to play in, why? There are already professional leagues in other places where our players can play in and those leagues wills do a much better job at rounding and polishing off our best players, all the while allowing us to concentrate on developing our players into professional quality players. Canada is lacking professional quality players not a professional league, what we need to do is create the places to develop these sorts of players; not places where these non-existent players can, or rather cannot, play.

[Maritime Q-Scout]

Addick,

At the same time having the opportunity makes a difference. Take a look at the NHL with expansion into the United States their ability to develop players has increased dramatically. Look at the QMJHL's expansion into the Atlantic Provinces. How many Nova Scotians, New Brunswickers, PE Islanders, or Newfs played in the CHL and had a legit shot at the NHL? That's changed, there's more opportunity for kids in hockey here now because of having a league team here. Of the Sydney area I believe only 2 people my age played in the QMJHL. Now there are more than 2 on the Screaming Eagles, let alone throughout the league. In fact there's a chance that there will be a Cape Breton native win the Memorial Cup two years in a row. Something that's only been done 4 times previous before last year. It will take time to develop the players at a professional quality, but all of a sudden there's a goal there. Right now why bother persue soccer, it'll get you into univeristy and help pay for your undergrad but other than that . . . there's no desire to keep playing really.

Even still, in two seasons of Making the Cut one of the winners of season 1 was Dominic Noel from New Brunswick, and this past one was Franklin MacDonald from Baddeck NS. Having the league here is giving kids from small towns outside of the major areas to have a chance at developping their skills and letting them know that sport is an option, and can be a dream. Frankly no QMJHL in the East means no Dominic Noels, no Franklin MacDonalds. Even Brad Richards could have been a question mark.

You're always going to get your Hargraves, or Crosbys coming from unexpected regions, but that just goes to show that those regions exist and need to be show there is a chance

[Delthefunky]

Originally Posted by troutman

I disowned him when he went to play for England.

He was cut from the Junior team ( I think U19 ), maybe younger, by that guy who used to host Soccer Saturdays on TSN (Vic Rauters partner).

Not sure how much that played a role in playing for England, but I would do the same. Even though England doesn't win squat

[ricoFlame]

Originally Posted by Thunderball

No he couldn't.

My whole point is in pro soccer, you can't be a star in Europe while playing for a 94th place team. Big clubs won't and don't care to notice you. If they don't notice you, the best you can be is like Craig Forrest... a couple years with a decent midtable premiership club, and then off to obscurity.

huh? hargreaves was in germany waaay before his international career had got off the ground. so...

[Thunderball]

Originally Posted by Addick

Putting the survival of the MLS itself aside there is still enough reason why the MLS will not do much help to the state of the game in Canada. What can a professional league possibly do to increase the strength of a weak footballing nation? I keep hearing people say that it will help us develop better players and give them a place to develop, but that is incorrect. In order to have a professional league you [i]need to have[\i] fully developed and quality players!!! How is a professional league a place for players to develop into professional quality players when they have to make a professional club in the first place?

The CSA and Canadian footy supporters are saying that we need local professional leagues for our players to play in, why? There are already professional leagues in other places where our players can play in and those leagues wills do a much better job at rounding and polishing off our best players, all the while allowing us to concentrate on developing our players into professional quality players. Canada is lacking professional quality players not a professional league, what we need to do is create the places to develop these sorts of players; not places where these non-existent players can, or rather cannot, play.

This is a good point, but what the MLS does is raise awareness.

It gets people saying, "why don't we have a pro team?", "why don't we have a junior team," "why can't Canada have a good team?", and even "why does Calgary not have enough fields?"

Canada has professional quality players... the problem is too many fall between the cracks and don't get to the levels of competition required to truly thrive. Those that don't slip between the cracks are often jaded for various reasons and refuse to play for Canada. The best way for soccer to be a success is to have a good program, from U-6 all the way to Pro... like hockey does. Right now, its a haphazard U-6 to U-18, with a couple of premier squads here and there, and once you reach adulthood, its a total show. Varsity soccer is generally a joke, despite some good players being on there. Its not the players that are jokes, its the coaches and administration. Ex: UofC tends to only bring in Blizzards players... Foothills had a better chance with the Storm than anyone else, and even then, its a joke. The only reason Owen Hargreaves isn't playing on Caledonian at AMSL or Montreal Impact in the A-League is cause he knew Niendorf, a guy connected to Bayern Munich. Not that I'm discounting Hargreaves' talent, its clearly there, but without challenge, top players tend to plateau very fast.

[Thunderball]

Originally Posted by ricoFlame

huh? hargreaves was in germany waaay before his international career had got off the ground. so...

Actually, that's true and not true. He got an opportunity to play in Bayern Munich's youth team at 16, in 1997. He was rejected by Canada twice, despite being there. When he graduated to the pros in August 2000 (which by no means guaranteed him a spot at Bayern Munich... typically top teams sell off their youth grads to small teams if they aren't world class), he was snapped up by England right away to play on their U-21 team (august 2000 as well). Very shortly thereafter, he got to start playing more with Bayern. Being in Germany didn't guarantee his career was going anywhere.

Had he accepted Canada (after being rejected a couple times), he would not have been exposed to the level and frequency of competition seen with a UEFA U-21 team. (CONCACAF teams have less games and less competition) He would likely have not stayed with Bayern due to his lack of international experience and been sold to a smaller club. Just like every other Canadian national in recent memory.

As well, German Bundesliga is generally considered second tier after the EPL, Serie A and La Liga. (This is demonstrated by CL and UEFA cup spots). Going to Man U was all about his International experience and Champions League experience with Bayern... but his CL experience with Bayern was due to his success internationally.

[Maritime Q-Scout]

Originally Posted by Thunderball

This is a good point, but what the MLS does is raise awareness.

It gets people saying, "why don't we have a pro team?", "why don't we have a junior team," "why can't Canada have a good team?", and even "why does Calgary not have enough fields?"

Canada has professional quality players... the problem is too many fall between the cracks and don't get to the levels of competition required to truly thrive. Those that don't slip between the cracks are often jaded for various reasons and refuse to play for Canada. The best way for soccer to be a success is to have a good program, from U-6 all the way to Pro... like hockey does. Right now, its a haphazard U-6 to U-18, with a couple of premier squads here and there, and once you reach adulthood, its a total show. Varsity soccer is generally a joke, despite some good players being on there. Its not the players that are jokes, its the coaches and administration. Ex: UofC tends to only bring in Blizzards players... Foothills had a better chance with the Storm than anyone else, and even then, its a joke. The only reason Owen Hargreaves isn't playing on Caledonian at AMSL or Montreal Impact in the A-League is cause he knew Niendorf, a guy connected to Bayern Munich. Not that I'm discounting Hargreaves' talent, its clearly there, but without challenge, top players tend to plateau very fast.

ahhhh my point exactly. MLS is doing wonders for exposure to the sport. Even if CBC's showing cut tape-delayed games, it's a start before it (hopefully) takes off.

I don't see "Canada" having a league on par with MLS just because of how sports works in North America. Canada/United States basically have an open boarder in this regard. NHL, MLB, NBA all have teams in both countries. In the case of MLB and NBA they had 2 with only one thriving, however it shows that they do consider Canadian markets. MLS is showing that they aren't discriminating the boarder either. The minor leagues also flop over both boarders, so if there's going to be a major soccer league in Canada it'd be shared with the United States.

[flylock shox]

I used to play against Owen back when he played for Foothills at the U-15 level, and can totally understand why he decided to play for England instead of Canada.

What you have to understand is that Canada's problems at the international level start at the grass roots level: there is a lack of adequate scouting, and those nominated to city selects, provincial selects, and ultimately national camps are nominated often for political reasons as opposed to pure merit. What this means is that national coaches don't get a great idea of the players they select: they don't see them in repeated game situations in the same way that coaches in "soccer countries" do.

Owen was one of the youngest players in the U-15 league and was, in my opinion at that time, the best. But I notice that even players on his own team who played a more physical game and were possibly more physically mature at an earlier age (Rob Catana and Brian Newmarch come to mind) got more of a look at the Canadian national side than did Hargreaves. Owen got a break at 15 when Thomas Niendorf started running training camps for players in Calgary, and used his connections with Bayern to get Owen a proper audition with the big club.

In short, if Canada put anything like the funding into soccer recruitment that other countries do, or had the same number of connections at the grass roots level, Owen would have been on the national team's radar at the age of 13. As it happened, the national team never recognized his ability, and lost out. I wouldn't blame him for feeling jaded (if he ever did), and certainly wouldn't blame him for not wanting to join a program that wasn't even professional enough to recognize his talent, let alone able to crack the FIFA top 70.

Good for Owen. He's living a dream that lots of young players in Calgary never even thought was remotely touchable.

And you can bet there's a few kids playing right now who are being overlooked just the same. Until Canada invests at the grass-roots level, we'll always be bush-league in international soccer.

[Addick]

Originally Posted by Maritime Q-Scout

Addick,

At the same time having the opportunity makes a difference. Take a look at the NHL with expansion into the United States their ability to develop players has increased dramatically. Look at the QMJHL's expansion into the Atlantic Provinces. How many Nova Scotians, New Brunswickers, PE Islanders, or Newfs played in the CHL and had a legit shot at the NHL? That's changed, there's more opportunity for kids in hockey here now because of having a league team here.

I do believe there is a definite need for football leagues, however, not the MLS. I'll discuss this in more detail below but to put it simply:

The QMJHL is to Atlantic Hockey as Development & Amateur Leagues (not the MLS/pro-leagues) are to Canadian Football.

Originally Posted by Thunderball

This is a good point, but what the MLS does is raise awareness.

It gets people saying, "why don't we have a pro team?", "why don't we have a junior team," "why can't Canada have a good team?", and even "why does Calgary not have enough fields?"

Canada has professional quality players... the problem is too many fall between the cracks and don't get to the levels of competition required to truly thrive. Those that don't slip between the cracks are often jaded for various reasons and refuse to play for Canada. The best way for soccer to be a success is to have a good program, from U-6 all the way to Pro... like hockey does...

You and Maritime Q-Scout are the most reasonable guys that I have talked with over the last couple of days about this stuff. What you highlighted in your post is what I've been trying to tell a few guys on SSP the last couple of days and the guys at Canadian Soccer Voyageurs for the last couple of years. The problem facing football in Canada is the huge gap in the system between kids playing/being interested in footy, and playing professionally. There is a lack of a development system where kids can develop into professional quality players. Kids aren't falling through cracks; they are falling into gaping holes!

I've been working on a two tier approach to the problem but it's pretty late and I don't want to get into detail, I'll save that for another time. However, I'll give you an idea of the structure.

Tier One:
Minor League Overhaul/Youth Player System Creation
I believe the biggest issue facing youth players is the lack of skill development. From early on there is a focus on winning games; kids play as many games a week as they have practices. When looking at youth games here I always find myself saying "Why teach a kid the 4-3-3 formation when he/she doesn't even know how to properly pass the bloody football?" Focus needs to be placed on teaching children the basic skills of the game. As kids grow and master the basics of the game kids that want to further develop their skills need to be provided with outlets. Currently the lack of these outlets is what is leading to politics and kids falling through the cracks. Development leagues with youth clubs and academy teams need to be created.

Teir Two:
Amateur and Senior Leagues
In this stage Amateur leagues would provide a link in the journey to the pros for players that don't make the jump for straight from youth teams: Youth League --> Youth Development Club --> Amateur Club --> Professional Club. Aside from that it would also provide place for players who aren't good enough to make it pro to play at a higher level. These are also clubs that people would go watch and cheer for as well as those that would mature into future professional clubs. Clubs like Ajax and professional leagues in Europe didn't start of as professional, they have their roots in the amateur game.


My teir approach basically rejects professional leagues as the answer and instead chooses Development and Amateur Leagues.

[Maritime Q-Scout]

Addick, now I must admit I never played soccer/football (I'm gonna call it soccer for simplicity sake and avoid confusion with North American rhetoric).

l have friends that played, I'd assume at the club level like I played Little League Baseball, and Minor Hockey. I do believe over the years the minor soccer system (if that's what it's called) in Nova Scotia has grown, I think I heard a stat a few years back that there were more kids registered for soccer in the summer than hockey in the winter.

After the elementary school level organizations/teams there were the schools. Playing on any sporting team was is a big deal in NS. Be it Soccer, hockey, basketball, or if the school has it football. The four sports were treated equally. The only real execption would be the lack of a big soccer tournament in the area. Where I'm from there's two HUGE high schools sporting events: Coal Bowl, a basketball tournament hosted by Breton Education Centre in New Waterford that attracts teams from Ontario and Quebec, and Red Cup, a hockey tournament that attracts (or atleast used to) teams from Ontario and Quebec. Both have thier venues packed to the rafters with fans watching them, to the point that if the major junior team is playing at home on one of those weekends Centre200 is empty for the game. I remember as a kid feeling how electric the County Arena was for Riverveiw/Sydney Academy games (still nothing better than a RHS/SA game at Red Cup. . . have to take out my Blue and White here and scream F U Riverview!).

However there isn't any soccer tournament that does the same thing. Does that hurt awareness? I'd think so.

After high school, there's CIS. Soccer is taken seriously by the local university here, in fact Cape Breton University is hosting the CIS Women's National Championships this fall (I'm on the host committee if you have any idea/suggestions I'd love to hear them). Their men's program has started to take off as well. My question is, where do you go from there?

One of the women's players from a few years back played for the University Team Canada, and CBU's head coach coached them I believe (not sure if he still does).

As for the men there is a Nova Scotia Senior League. It seems to be one par with the Maritime Senior Baseball League. A place for the 20-somethings to play competitively, however I don't know if there's anything for them other the weekend games and such. I believe the soccer league is considered a higher level of play relative to teh baseball league, as the soccer league has games televised on Eastlink Cable akin to Major Juinor hockey.

I think soccer has developped a lot in Nova Scotia over the past 10 years. There are more options now than there were, but we're still not near your end goal (which should be ours, and well the country's goal as a whole).

(I'm kind of ranting/typing unorganized thoughts here incase you didn't catch on by now . . . infact 98.7342% of my posts are ranting/unorganized thoughts)

Do you think it's possible to use the education system as a means of development akin to your teir one approach, further develop leagues such as the Nova Scotia Soccer League (amateur club) and expand upon an MLS type league (professional)?

[sadora]

Originally Posted by Addick

I do believe there is a definite need for football leagues, however, not the MLS. I'll discuss this in more detail below but to put it simply:

The QMJHL is to Atlantic Hockey as Development & Amateur Leagues (not the MLS/pro-leagues) are to Canadian Football.



You and Maritime Q-Scout are the most reasonable guys that I have talked with over the last couple of days about this stuff. What you highlighted in your post is what I've been trying to tell a few guys on SSP the last couple of days and the guys at Canadian Soccer Voyageurs for the last couple of years. The problem facing football in Canada is the huge gap in the system between kids playing/being interested in footy, and playing professionally. There is a lack of a development system where kids can develop into professional quality players. Kids aren't falling through cracks; they are falling into gaping holes!

I've been working on a two tier approach to the problem but it's pretty late and I don't want to get into detail, I'll save that for another time. However, I'll give you an idea of the structure.

Tier One:
Minor League Overhaul/Youth Player System Creation
I believe the biggest issue facing youth players is the lack of skill development. From early on there is a focus on winning games; kids play as many games a week as they have practices. When looking at youth games here I always find myself saying "Why teach a kid the 4-3-3 formation when he/she doesn't even know how to properly pass the bloody football?" Focus needs to be placed on teaching children the basic skills of the game. As kids grow and master the basics of the game kids that want to further develop their skills need to be provided with outlets. Currently the lack of these outlets is what is leading to politics and kids falling through the cracks. Development leagues with youth clubs and academy teams need to be created.

Teir Two:
Amateur and Senior Leagues
In this stage Amateur leagues would provide a link in the journey to the pros for players that don't make the jump for straight from youth teams: Youth League --> Youth Development Club --> Amateur Club --> Professional Club. Aside from that it would also provide place for players who aren't good enough to make it pro to play at a higher level. These are also clubs that people would go watch and cheer for as well as those that would mature into future professional clubs. Clubs like Ajax and professional leagues in Europe didn't start of as professional, they have their roots in the amateur game.


My teir approach basically rejects professional leagues as the answer and instead chooses Development and Amateur Leagues.

The problem comes down to lack of exposure. You can't have much youth development without the professional leauge. A system like that works naturally in Europe as well as in South America because there "soccer" is already a huge part of culture. I don't think that would work here because soccer isn't as big yet. But having a professional club would create that general interest and support. Having this would create better development programs.

[Thunderball]

Originally Posted by fotze

Is this really true? Maybe a small step in terms of dollars and exposure but nowhere near the step of say the NHL to the AHL.....

It can't really be compared to hockey, but its a step down for sure, but you're right, its not a NHL-AHL drop, its more like if the Western Conference and Eastern Conference were separate leagues, and one was able to spend up to $50m, and the other up to $40m. They still boast some good teams, but these teams are generally outclassed, boast less star players and have less dollars than their English, Spanish and Italian cohorts.

[troutman]

Originally Posted by fotze

I can buy that, I had assumed you meant a serious drop.

What? Is no one afraid to play Energie Cottbus? Or Tracktor Factory Chemnitz (formerly Karl Marx-Stadt)? Or Glorious Port Workers of Rostok?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fu%C3%9Fball-Bundesliga

The mascot for FC Koln is a goat.

[Addick]

Originally Posted by Maritime Q-Scout

Do you think it's possible to use the education system as a means of development akin to your teir one approach, further develop leagues such as the Nova Scotia Soccer League (amateur club) and expand upon an MLS type league (professional)?

In my preliminary research and prescription schools leagues are actually something I'm considering to possibly play quite a large role. The school league was a major part of the youth league system my father played in in his home country and I'm looking at replicating that. The school league was the formal league and every school had a couple of teams so every child got to play, the more skilled ones one the more competitive teams and the ones playing for fun on the rec teams. For the Teir One implementation in Calgary what I'm looking at is the disbanding of the CMSA and replacing that league with a school league. This way ever kid gets a chance to play, as you don't have to pay as much and that helps fill up some of the current cracks in the system.

Staring around the U9-U10ish age this school league would be supplemented by development leagues as well as youth clubs & academies. The provision of this would provide the development options players currently do not have much or any access to. So to answer you question, yes the education can possibly be the means and it is probably the best candidate. The school leagues would provide the development leagues with players, the development league would provide both the amateur and professional leagues, and finally the amateur league could provide the players for the pro leagues, and in the case of club maturation even clubs!

[Thunderball]

Originally Posted by fotze

I can buy that, I had assumed you meant a serious drop.

Its mostly a perception thing. While Bayern can spend with the big boys, they often choose not to, and pocket their profits. After that, its a substantial drop in how many teams can afford star players. Borussia Dortmund, Bayer Leverkusen and Kaiserslautern used to be close, but each ran into various financial issues.

[Addick]

Originally Posted by sadora

The problem comes down to lack of exposure. You can't have much youth development without the professional leauge. A system like that works naturally in Europe as well as in South America because there "soccer" is already a huge part of culture. I don't think that would work here because soccer isn't as big yet. But having a professional club would create that general interest and support. Having this would create better development programs.

It's actually the other way around, you can't have a decent pro-league without a youth development system to feed them players. Professional leagues are not the only place where players can be spotted. The youth development leagues, academies, and club will not only provide a place for players to develop but also a place for them to be seen. Currently two main reasons why European and other clubs that might be interested in North American players get fed up and lose interest is because, A) the skill isn't there for the most part and; B) the few players that are really skilled are hard to locate because the system is so fractured.

Aside from the youth development system, the amateur leagues will provide a place for a variety of players young and old to show case their stuff. These are also the teams that people will come and watch, it may not be top class football but it will be a local team that will see its fan base increase with the skill of its players. Over time the teams in larger towns and cities will become professional with throngs of supporters.

[Locke]

Originally Posted by Addick

For the Teir One implementation in Calgary what I'm looking at is the disbanding of the CMSA and replacing that league with a school league

As a CMSA coach I'm not sure I like that idea, what happens to all the teams that are currently together?

[browna]

Originally Posted by troutman

What? Is no one afraid to play Energie Cottbus? Or Tracktor Factory Chemnitz (formerly Karl Marx-Stadt)? Or Glorious Port Workers of Rostok?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fu%C3%9Fball-Bundesliga

The mascot for FC Koln is a goat.

Kevin McKenna, captain of the national team (I think) is captain of Cottbus.......for now.
Nevermind, the secret's out....Kevin's a goat (Koln) as of today.

[Thunderball]

Originally Posted by fotze

I can buy that, I had assumed you meant a serious drop.

I found some good stats to better illustrate the drop in league perception and talent.

This is the yearly UEFA Competition Rankings for the most notable leagues. This is determined by success in all European competition.

1.Spain 72.7482
2. Italy 66.7313
3. England 63.4864
4. France 50.7815
5. Germany 48.3646
6. Portugal 44.0417
7. Netherlands 41.331
--------------------------
11. Scotland 30.375

Out of the top ranked 15 clubs, only 3 aren't from England, Spain and Italy.

1.AC Milan-Italy 133.808
2.FC Barcelona- Spain 119.374
3.Liverpool- England 112.618
4.Internazionale- Italy 107.808
5.Arsenal- England 104.618
6.Real Madrid- Spain 104.374
7.Chelsea- England 99.618
7.Manchester United- England 99.618
9.Valencia- Spain 99.374
10.Lyon- France 95.706
11.Newcastle United- England 94.618
12.Juventus- Italy 92.808
13.Porto- Portugal 89.107
14.Sevilla- Spain 87.374
15.PSV Eindhoven- Netherlands 81.995

This is taken from European success in the past 5 years.

So, as you can see, while its not exactly NHL v. AHL... its a pretty good difference between the big clubs of Italy, Spain and England, and the rest.

[troutman]

Originally Posted by Thunderball

.

So, as you can see, while its not exactly NHL v. AHL... its a pretty good difference between the big clubs of Italy, Spain and England, and the rest.

Good job. It used to be more cyclical in the past too - a team like Ajax (Amsterdam) could dominate in the old days. Now the UEFA $ is so big to the Champions League teams, the rich get richer, and other teams have no chance.