Generational standards of living

[kevman]

Originally Posted by Fuzz

Life was also easier in cities, because you didn't spend half your day in traffic. Getting around was a cinch. With fewer people around, camping was easier and generally anything in the mountains was more enjoyable. Skiing was something a family could at least occasionally afford.

I wasn't going to weigh in to this thread but this is the part I'm most bummed about. Getting a campsite is impossible and we probably spend more money on skiing/biking every year than we do on our mortgage. Since I was a kid the cities population has doubled yet our recreation facilities in the mountains have remained the same, or in the case of ski hills, actually declined with th closure of Fortress and Wintergreen.

Side note, the mortgage comment was supposed to be an exaggeration but I think it's accurate. To Slivers original comment that sparked this debate, we live in a 900 sq. ft. 2 bedroom home as a family of 4. As a result our mortgage is cheap but it's definitely a little cramped and I can see why people want bigger homes.

[edslunch]

It would be interesting to compare not the relative living standards between generations but the change in living standards within each generation. Your parents or grandparents started off drinking powdered milk in a small apartment but ended up drinking 2% in a 1500 sq ft house. Your kids started off drinking organic soy milk in a 3000 sq ft house...will they end up drinking Dom Perignon in a 30 room mansion, or drinking no-name oat milk in a one bedroom condo?

I feel like people have much better starting point today, but less opportunity for upward mobility.

[blender]

Originally Posted by Oil Stain

Its pretty interesting to see half of the population rail against big government, when big government and socialist policies created the economic conditions for the middle class that everyone wants to return to.

Most people have no idea what is good for them.

[Winsor_Pilates]

I think anxiety is definitely up for young people and it's largely social media's fault.

Things like body dysmorphia are growing, young people feel they need to keep up with what they see on instagram etc.
When in reality they're only seeing a heavily filtered, custom selected snipet of other people.
Perfect bodies, perfect vacations, perfect clothes, cars, jewellery and luxury goods.
Kids are trying to keep up with others, when the others aren't even real.

At least when we were young we got see the good and the bad of our peers.
I worry about how to raise my kids around these pressures.

[flamesfever]

Originally Posted by troutman

Have young people ever been as depressed and anxious as they are now?

I would guess it has a lot to do with the disappearance of the "Canadian Dream" i.e. after education to get a decent job that pays enough to buy a house, find a mate, have kids, save for retirement, and live happily ever after.

Psychologically and physically, I have noticed a gradual increase in things like ADHD and allergies, which I would speculate is probably caused by an increase in the pollution of our overall environment.

Life in the past seemed to be a lot simpler, slower, and had more meaning for most of us. I know it's popular on this site to denigrate religion, but I honestly think that most of the precepts, the socializing with like minded people, and the thought that we were giving back to society, helped us spiritually.

[Locke]

Originally Posted by Winsor_Pilates

I think anxiety is definitely up for young people and it's largely social media's fault.

Things like body dysmorphia are growing, young people feel they need to keep up with what they see on instagram etc.
When in reality they're only seeing a heavily filtered, custom selected snipet of other people.
Perfect bodies, perfect vacations, perfect clothes, cars, jewellery and luxury goods.
Kids are trying to keep up with others, when the others aren't even real.

At least when we were young we got see the good and the bad of our peers.
I worry about how to raise my kids around these pressures.

I've said it a million times.

You have to be cognizant of when you're comparing your 'everyday' to someone else's 'Highlight Reel.'

Because thats what Social Media is. Its the glorification of the absolute very best.

Life is not a 'Highlight Reel' its largely a slog.

[Locke]

I do find social med somewhat funny.

I'm not on Facebook, Twitter or Instagram.

Looking at: "Beautiful woman on Tropical Holiday"

Its really not a whole lot different than when the Simpsons force Homer to watch Patty and Selma's slideshow about their trip to the Remington Carriage Museum.

I dont care about your holiday.

[GirlySports]

Originally Posted by Locke

The other thing is...with the cost of housing, those kids are going to be living with you for longer.

A lot longer.

I had to go over this...living at home into your mid-20s? It happens. Because living expenses are outrageous.

This is the immigrant experience and 80% of the world. Adult children live with their parents and even if they leave aren't far separated. Get free housing, free childcare. Save money. One generation sacrifices for another. Of course this doesn't come without its own problems.

[GirlySports]

Originally Posted by edslunch

It would be interesting to compare not the relative living standards between generations but the change in living standards within each generation. Your parents or grandparents started off drinking powdered milk in a small apartment but ended up drinking 2% in a 1500 sq ft house. Your kids started off drinking organic soy milk in a 3000 sq ft house...will they end up drinking Dom Perignon in a 30 room mansion, or drinking no-name oat milk in a one bedroom condo?

I feel like people have much better starting point today, but less opportunity for upward mobility.

But that is a choice. Compare a 20 year today to your 20 year old self. What things did you buy? Did you have a credit card? Did you live on your own or have roommates? Did hanging out with your friends cost money (starbucks). How often did you eat at restaurants compared to fast food compared to cooking? Did you have a car? Etc etc....

I see teenagers with $7 lattes and it kind of jolts me. How much did you ever spend in in high school?

Locke is right, the selfie is a game changer.

[topfiverecords]

Originally Posted by PepsiFree

Ask her what?

What time you were conceived and if they had avocado toast before or after.

[Geraldsh]

Originally Posted by kevman

I wasn't going to weigh in to this thread but this is the part I'm most bummed about. Getting a campsite is impossible and we probably spend more money on skiing/biking every year than we do on our mortgage. Since I was a kid the cities population has doubled yet our recreation facilities in the mountains have remained the same, or in the case of ski hills, actually declined with th closure of Fortress and Wintergreen.

Side note, the mortgage comment was supposed to be an exaggeration but I think it's accurate. To Slivers original comment that sparked this debate, we live in a 900 sq. ft. 2 bedroom home as a family of 4. As a result our mortgage is cheap but it's definitely a little cramped and I can see why people want bigger homes.

If you follow the boomer pattern, after the kids grow up and move out you can buy a bigger house.

[Fuzz]

Originally Posted by Locke

I do find social med somewhat funny.

I'm not on Facebook, Twitter or Instagram.

Looking at: "Beautiful woman on Tropical Holiday"

Its really not a whole lot different than when the Simpsons force Homer to watch Patty and Selma's slideshow about their trip to the Remington Carriage Museum.

I dont care about your holiday.

FOUL. Red Card! "med" is not the short form of media, no matter how lazy your fingers are.

[GGG]

I like to shorten in further and just call all social media “the med”. Saved 5 letters

[Locke]

Originally Posted by Fuzz

FOUL. Red Card! "med" is not the short form of media, no matter how lazy your fingers are.

I agree. I did not notice that. Mea Culpa. But this laptop is getting a little old. It was unintentional.

[Bonded]

I think it really boils down to wage stagnation leading to a greater level of inequality leaves people feeling like they are getting left behind. The recent inflationary run has thrown another kick in the nuts to the people scraping by.

https://www.epi.org/publication/char...ge-stagnation/

https://www.weforum.org/agenda/2020/...ica-economics/

I truly don't understand how a family making 80k is making it work these days.

[Fuzz]

The laptop ain't the only thing!

[PepsiFree]

Originally Posted by topfiverecords

What time you were conceived and if they had avocado toast before or after.

I doubt my mom remembers, she has some issues that make long term memory a pretty big struggle. And I doubt they’ve ever had avocado toast (together, at least) as my mom doesn't like avocado.

[powderjunkie]

Originally Posted by GGG

I think the benefits labour participation increasing has been swallowed up by the cost of housing

Essentially because there are more two income families the amount of dollars chasing housing is highe while the amount of desired housing is fixed. So you get a lot of the extra income a 2nd person working in the home used to provide being swallowed up into housing causing more work for the same benefit.

Another problem is that we have taken the results in gains from automation and energy cost reductions by consuming more rather than working less. The hours per capita to run society to meet basic needs is far lower than at any point in history (maybe recently with pricing carbon you could say within the last 10 years was the bottom). So as a society we have a consumption problem and a wealth distribution problem.

Average quality of life is clearly higher median quality may not be.

Median household familiy income in adjusted dollars is up significantly since 1980. (Down slightly post Covid)
https://www150.statcan.gc.ca/n1/dail...10323a-eng.htm



That’s gets us to the year 2000 and then in terms of 1980-2000
https://publications.gc.ca/Collectio...75-202-XIE.pdf

Real family income is up faster than inflation meaning the problem for families at least is wealth distribution and consumption.

I have not thought deeply about this nor looked at your links, but is the following possible:

1. Could demographics explain why median family income is up? Just spitballing we've had boomers in their peak earning years and starting to leave the workforce, but never in history have there been more managerial and professional positions in the workforce...

Say 50 years ago 60% of people worked menial jobs, 5% white collar in those companies, and 35% were professional positions. Today it might be more like 40% menial, 20% white collar in those companies, and 40% professional? Totally spitballing the numbers...I suppose you could argue that many of today's "marketing coordinators" would have been working an assembly line before. And thinking out loud, female workforce participation is probably an even bigger impact

2. Housing costs would still disproportionately affect younger people, even if it's true that all wages have outpaced inflation. Boomers had to direct comparitively very very little to pay off the back end of their mortgages, freeing them up vast resources for other consumption now. Of course current millenials/Gen X should get this advantage down the road, but who knows if it will be as pronounced? It seems boomers certainly benefited more from this than their parents

Just thinking out loud...the 'boomer advantage' might be heavily skewing a lot of stats?

[Locke]

Originally Posted by Fuzz

The laptop ain't the only thing!

Sir! Are you insinuating that I am ageing at an unnatural rate?

I dont need glasses yet, but when I do...I'm going to see Knut and I'm getting a monocle!

Or maybe a pair of those glasses that you hold up to your eyes with a stick?

[powderjunkie]

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

Hard to say, since before around the 90s it was culturally taboo to talk about depression and anxiety.

But if they are in fact more depressed and anxious than the generation that went through the Depression and fought in WW2, then it’s unlikely material deprivation is the root of their unhappiness. Other factors could be at play, such as the steep decline in face-to-face socialization, and spending several hours a day engaged with social media platforms that are fuelled by comparison and anxiety.

I wonder if the proliferation of materialism and consumerism itself isn't one of the biggest culprits? Comparison is the thief of joy, and it's particularly difficult to avoid comparison these days.

Poor people in poor countries can be some of the 'happiest' people in the world...similar to past generations where flashy/shiny/new products & experiences were simply unfathomable as being possible for the vast majority of the population...not really the case today, but we'll inevitably end up disappointed