Israel declares war on Hamas

[PepsiFree]

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

You still haven’t answered the question of why Israel attracts far, far more international condemnation than those other powers. Any ideas? Or is it just one of those mysteries that isn’t worth thinking about?

How many times, if you were to stop and think about it, do you believe you could go to this line of questioning, get several well-reasoned answers, disappear, and come back to ask like nobody has bothered to ponder this interesting question in the first place?

We’re at how many now? 3? You just asked it two weeks ago? How mysterious can it possibly be to you when everyone continuously humours you with an answer?

[TherapyforGlencross]

Reports of incoming bombing by UK&US on Youthi sites in Yemen. Iran seized a Marshall Islands (is this USA-owned, then?) oil tanker. Middle East is a powder keg currently.

[RobotTalk]

Originally Posted by TherapyforGlencross

Reports of incoming bombing by UK&US on Youthi sites in Yemen. Iran seized a Marshall Islands (is this USA-owned, then?) oil tanker. Middle East is a powder keg currently.

It's a bit broader than that. In the last 2 days, we've also had NATO minesweepers sent into the Black Sea (the first time nato warships have crossed the Bosphorus Straits since the Russia-Ukraine War started) and the announcement that the US will send a bipartisan delegation of retired senior officials to Taiwan after the election this weekend.

The world is a powder keg currently.

[Doctorfever]

So we all agree Hamas is evil and needs to be eliminated.

I think we can all agree that 100% of the deaths from the Oct 7th attacks are Hamas fault.

The civilian casualties due to retaliation of Oct 7th attacks are terrible. Hopefully we can all agree on that.

Who is really to blame for those casualties? If it wasn’t for Hamas attack on Oct 7th, the total number of Palestinian casualties would be 0.

I know some here question Israel tactics used to help defeat Hamas. But shouldn’t at least some of that blame be placed on Hamas? After all, they orchestrated the Oct 7th attack and are using Palestinians as human shields.

[activeStick]

What Israel needs to do is what the US did with the "American Service-Members' Protection Act" which states, "The Act authorizes the president of the United States to use "all means necessary and appropriate to bring about the release of any U.S. or allied personnel being detained or imprisoned by, on behalf of, or at the request of the International Criminal Court". This authorization led to the act being colloquially nicknamed "The Hague Invasion Act", as the act allows the president to order U.S. military action, such as an invasion of the Netherlands, where The Hague is located, to protect American officials and military personnel from prosecution or rescue them from custody.[3][4]"

Ultimate protection and perfect alignment to the "Rules-based Order" of the world (i.e. the West).

It would allow them to hold others accountable to atrocities, but protects them from doing what they shun others for. The US is the world's one true beacon of democracy, freedom and human rights!

[Fuzz]

Originally Posted by Doctorfever

So we all agree Hamas is evil and needs to be eliminated.

I think we can all agree that 100% of the deaths from the Oct 7th attacks are Hamas fault.

The civilian casualties due to retaliation of Oct 7th attacks are terrible. Hopefully we can all agree on that.

Who is really to blame for those casualties? If it wasn’t for Hamas attack on Oct 7th, the total number of Palestinian casualties would be 0.

I know some here question Israel tactics used to help defeat Hamas. But shouldn’t at least some of that blame be placed on Hamas? After all, they orchestrated the Oct 7th attack and are using Palestinians as human shields.

If you are still working on apportioning blame, there is no hope. Blame isn't going to solve this.

[Southside403]

Originally Posted by Doctorfever

So we all agree Hamas is evil and needs to be eliminated.

I think we can all agree that 100% of the deaths from the Oct 7th attacks are Hamas fault.

The civilian casualties due to retaliation of Oct 7th attacks are terrible. Hopefully we can all agree on that.

Who is really to blame for those casualties? If it wasn’t for Hamas attack on Oct 7th, the total number of Palestinian casualties would be 0.

I know some here question Israel tactics used to help defeat Hamas. But shouldn’t at least some of that blame be placed on Hamas? After all, they orchestrated the Oct 7th attack and are using Palestinians as human shields.

This

[Southside403]

Originally Posted by Doctorfever

So we all agree Hamas is evil and needs to be eliminated.

I think we can all agree that 100% of the deaths from the Oct 7th attacks are Hamas fault.

The civilian casualties due to retaliation of Oct 7th attacks are terrible. Hopefully we can all agree on that.

Who is really to blame for those casualties? If it wasn’t for Hamas attack on Oct 7th, the total number of Palestinian casualties would be 0.

I know some here question Israel tactics used to help defeat Hamas. But shouldn’t at least some of that blame be placed on Hamas? After all, they orchestrated the Oct 7th attack and are using Palestinians as human shields.

Blame game can go on and on how about the radical settlers and the dirty Israeli government,hamas
Fock anyone who kills any human no blood is more superior then the other. All bunch baby killers

[GGG]

Originally Posted by Doctorfever

So we all agree Hamas is evil and needs to be eliminated.

I think we can all agree that 100% of the deaths from the Oct 7th attacks are Hamas fault.

The civilian casualties due to retaliation of Oct 7th attacks are terrible. Hopefully we can all agree on that.

Who is really to blame for those casualties? If it wasn’t for Hamas attack on Oct 7th, the total number of Palestinian casualties would be 0.

I know some here question Israel tactics used to help defeat Hamas. But shouldn’t at least some of that blame be placed on Hamas? After all, they orchestrated the Oct 7th attack and are using Palestinians as human shields.

Sure Hamas gets at least some of the blame. Now can Israel choose to sacrifice IDF lives to protect civilian lives.

[Doctorfever]

Originally Posted by GGG

Sure Hamas gets at least some of the blame. Now can Israel choose to sacrifice IDF lives to protect civilian lives.

I think that is exactly what they are doing.

[Doctorfever]

Originally Posted by Fuzz

If you are still working on apportioning blame, there is no hope. Blame isn't going to solve this.

Blame isn’t going to solve this. Sure.

But if we can agree on a few things, that is more common ground, that is further than the first 4730 posts of this thread.


Blame certainly won’t solve it, but it helps to explain why and how so many civilians have been killed. Since that is what we are all concerned about.

[Bagor]

So we're in agreement then that the blame for the premeditated, pre stated, intentional genocidal slaughter, maiming, starvation and death from disease of a civilian population due to a refusal to allow basic humanitarian aid in lies with Israel?

[Doctorfever]

Nm

[Harry Lime]

Originally Posted by Bagor

So we're in agreement then that the blame for the premeditated, pre stated, intentional genocidal slaughter, maiming, starvation and death from disease of a civilian population due to a refusal to allow basic humanitarian aid in lies with Israel?

Most of this page has been about how blame is shared in this situation between Hamas and the more authoritarian part of Israel. How many posters do you have blocked?

[Zevo]

Originally Posted by Bagor

So we're in agreement then that the blame for the premeditated, pre stated, intentional genocidal slaughter, maiming, starvation and death from disease of a civilian population due to a refusal to allow basic humanitarian aid in lies with Israel?

LOL...at this point you're a caricature.

[GGG]

Originally Posted by Doctorfever

I think that is exactly what they are doing.

I look at 514 vs 24000 and suggest they could do better. I don’t know what the reasonable number is. But that plus the future deaths due to the destruction of infrastructure seems to be tilts too much towards civilian deaths for me.

[blankall]

Originally Posted by GGG

Sure Hamas gets at least some of the blame. Now can Israel choose to sacrifice IDF lives to protect civilian lives.

This IMO is the strongest point against Israel's tactics. They are avoiding urban combat by destroying the buildings. For example, instead of engaging in close combat with Hamas in a hunkered down position, they are just knocking the building down with a bomb.

International law isn't equipped to deal with a situation where one side has so extensively wrapped their military structure around their own civilian population. The question becomes, morally, how many of their own people does Israel have to sacrifice if it wants to fight Hamas?

[blankall]

Originally Posted by _Q_

In your mind didn't this rhetoric not exist prior to October 7? Will you change your stance if I show you similar statements from prior to October 7? What makes post October 7 statements less relevant than pre-October 7th statements?

Destroying a state is not considered genocide. The State of Israel is not the Jewish people. Also the liberation of Palestine can mean many things. It can include a palestinian state in Gaza and the West Bank along with full rights and equality for the Palestinians with Israeli citizenship, as well as a just solution for the refugees.

Aren't you also arguing that Israel taking over Gaza and giving the Palestinians the option to leave to somewhere else is genocide?

I don't think Hamas has in mind a flourishing Jewish majority Tel Aviv with 4 plus million people as part of their imagined state. Are they going to respect the rights of the hundreds of thousands of LGTBQ people who live there? Beyond their nationalist aspirations, Hamas also has religious goals. They are Sunnni Islamists who want to replace any secular or Jewish state with a Sunni state. The idea that Hamas is promoting some kind of multinational state with fair rights for all is absurd.

You don't need to support Israel in any way, to acknowledge that Hamas is awful.

[Regorium]

Originally Posted by GGG

I look at 514 vs 24000 and suggest they could do better. I don’t know what the reasonable number is. But that plus the future deaths due to the destruction of infrastructure seems to be tilts too much towards civilian deaths for me.

This is an unrealistic expectation. I would expect any country to value their military and their citizens infinitely more than people in other countries.

The fact that it's 50 to 1 is an extremely generous number and Israel has taken substantial losses for their capability. It clearly shows a lack of indiscriminate bombing, or intentional killing of civilians.

[Doctorfever]

Originally Posted by GGG

I look at 514 vs 24000 and suggest they could do better. I don’t know what the reasonable number is. But that plus the future deaths due to the destruction of infrastructure seems to be tilts too much towards civilian deaths for me.

Would you be ok with things if Hamas had been more successful on October 7th?

I agree that the number of civilian casualties is high. Like I said before, I don’t think we can blame all the Palestinian casualties on Israel, when Hamas is using them as human shields.