Being a bubble team is not something to celebrate, it’s what this team was always going to be.
They’re not good, and refuse to be bad enough to enact real change.
Like getting a Cutter Gauthier?
The Flames are what they are. Change is going to happen. The draft is a crap shoot. The game was fun to watch. They are inconsistent but fun to watch this year. Which is something.
Being a bubble team is not something to celebrate, it’s what this team was always going to be.
They’re not good, and refuse to be bad enough to enact real change.
Scorched earth isn't the only option and this team has no plans to do a scorched earth 8 year rebuild.
Getting subpar returns for younger players than can still help even coming out of a retool / rebuild isn't going to help you as much as you seem to think.
Getting a 2025 1st that's going to be pick 25-32 isn't going to help in 4-6 years as much and Hanifin is still likely going to help in 4-6 years.
Signing Hanifin is still a completly fine outcome, even moreso if it means they'd be open to trading Andersson then.
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Scorched earth isn't the only option and this team has no plans to do a scorched earth 8 year rebuild.
Getting subpar returns for younger players than can still help even coming out of a retool / rebuild isn't going to help you as much as you seem to think.
Getting a 2025 1st that's going to be pick 25-32 isn't going to help in 4-6 years as much and Hanifin is still likely going to help in 4-6 years.
Signing Hanifin is still a completly fine outcome, even moreso if it means they'd be open to trading Andersson then.
Team rebuild wants Hanifin gone so that the team gets worse and improves it's own draft position over the next few years while collecting picks. Not because they think the player drafted using the Hanifin pick will be better than Hanifin in the next 4-6 years.
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Scorched earth isn't the only option and this team has no plans to do a scorched earth 8 year rebuild.
Getting subpar returns for younger players than can still help even coming out of a retool / rebuild isn't going to help you as much as you seem to think.
Getting a 2025 1st that's going to be pick 25-32 isn't going to help in 4-6 years as much and Hanifin is still likely going to help in 4-6 years.
Signing Hanifin is still a completly fine outcome, even moreso if it means they'd be open to trading Andersson then.
You mean a player like Zary? I think he's doing alright 3.5 years after being drafted 24th. Pelletier wasn't bad before his injury either.
You also assume that we won't use the $7M in cap space on a different player. Finally, you don't have to use the assets that you get back at the draft. You could flip the assets and get a player like Fiala/Hronek/DeBrincat/Chychrun that's still under team control.
Thing is that's unlikely to happen anyways. This owner is unlikely to go scorched earth, and both Sec214 and Dissentowner have said that a long bottoms out rebuild is not the plan.
They likely will spend that cap space in UFA if they have it available to them.
If a package is there they 100% should move Hanifin, but I think if the return/market is soft then keeping him is a perfectly viable option.
Last edited by SuperMatt18; 01-10-2024 at 08:53 AM.
^ I don't see a long scorched earth rebuild either. That said, I don't expect them to be right against the salary cap to start next year. I expect more gambles on 1 year contracts after the top UFAs are gone, or players in need of a change of scenery.
They 100% should move Hanifin. IMO he would still be worth more now, then signed to an 8 year contract, until he's 35, with a larger price tag and without Tanev as his D partner.
Location: I'm somewhere where I don't know where I am
Exp:
I don't understand the desire to completely bottom out
chances are more likely that you don't actually get back up for 20+ years than become a perennial contender
I'd rather not breed a losing culture
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i don't understand the desire to completely bottom out
chances are more likely that you don't actually get back up for 20+ years than become a perennial contender
i'd rather not breed a losing culture
I don't understand the desire to completely bottom out
chances are more likely that you don't actually get back up for 20+ years than become a perennial contender
I'd rather not breed a losing culture
CHI: 5 years(+5 years if you want to add the late 90s).
LAK: 6 years.
TBL: 6 years.
COL: 9 years.
PIT: 4 years.
NYR(current): 4 years.
CAR(current): 9 years.
NJD(current): 9 years.
BOS: 2 year retools.
Player careers don't last 20+ years. You're describing multiple botched rebuilds combined in BUF, and EDM by bad management groups.
Blacked out for me but watched the highlights this morning and happy to see them win. The Senators are a terrible team. Huberdeau seems to be gaining confidence, which is spectacular news.
Yeah, I was just saying the same thing, but you said it better.
Bottom line: those stats say he hasn't been good, but that's primarily because of crappy goaltending when he's on the ice, and Lindholm's poor play (line mates and usage).
Crappy stats, and people take them as fact: 'this player is better than that player, just look at his CF% and SCF%' etc, etc
I'm not one to call the stats crappy.
They certainly can be improved upon, and they need to be digested with a certain lens but they're not crappy.
Simple counts of where shots are being taken against and for you when you're on the ice is good information. You want less against and more for.
A player can be a victim of his linemates for sure though.
CHI: 5 years(+5 years if you want to add the late 90s).
LAK: 6 years.
TBL: 6 years.
COL: 9 years.
PIT: 4 years.
NYR(current): 4 years.
CAR(current): 9 years.
NJD(current): 9 years.
BOS: 2 year retools.
Player careers don't last 20+ years. You're describing multiple botched rebuilds combined in BUF, and EDM by bad management groups.
All of those numbers are debatable. But for the two lowest ones - NYR never bottomed out, just a retool. And for PIT, they won a lottery and got the best player of the 21st century for it (along with 2 other HOFers, in a span of 2 years). If you can guarantee that we'll get a Crosby, then I'll buy into the 4 years for PIT argument, but otherwise, they are the fortunate exception, not a viable example.
Also, you can't just leave all the bad ones off the list (OTT, BUF, EDM, ARI) and list the most successful.
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All of those numbers are debatable. But for the two lowest ones - NYR never bottomed out, just a retool. And for PIT, they won a lottery and got the best player of the 21st century for it (along with 2 other HOFers, in a span of 2 years). If you can guarantee that we'll get a Crosby, then I'll buy into the 4 years for PIT argument, but otherwise, they are the fortunate exception, not a viable example.
Also, you can't just leave all the bad ones off the list (OTT, BUF, EDM, ARI) and list the most successful.
The Rangers finished 24th & 26th in the league 2 straight years and drafted 1st & 2nd overall.
That's bottoming out.
You can call it a "retool" because they didn't stay bad long, but it's just a successful rebuild.
If the Flames can draft 1st & 2nd overall and only suck for 2 years, I'd take it.
Call it whatever you want.
The Rangers finished 24th & 26th in the league 2 straight years and drafted 1st & 2nd overall.
That's bottoming out.
You can call it a "retool" because they didn't stay bad long, but it's just a successful rebuild.
If the Flames can draft 1st & 2nd overall and only suck for 2 years, I'd take it.
Call it whatever you want.
Rangers also aren't successful because of their high picks. Mostly trades and signings. They aren't really a model for the Flames to follow IMO
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Being a bubble team is not something to celebrate, it’s what this team was always going to be.
They’re not good, and refuse to be bad enough to enact real change.
Ironic this is posted in the GT against the Sens who totally tanked years ago and have been rebuilding forever...signed stars to long term deals outside their elc.
Dead last lol
They aren't losing UFAs for nothing, not the big ones anyway...there will be change and there already has.
Zary is probably the 2nd best rookie in the entire league, #1 goaltending prospect, likely multiple firsts this season.
Relax guy, its still a game...enjoy a win
If I'm not mistaken the Sens and Sabres were being used as an example in the summer lol, actually every summer for 5 years.
__________________
GFG
Last edited by dino7c; 01-10-2024 at 11:08 AM.
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They also benefitted by just being the Efffing Rangers.
They got a Norris winning Dman on his ELC that another team drafted because he wouldn't sign with that team and weaseled his way to where he wanted to go
They also got one of the most offensively gifted forwards in the game in his prime as free agent in Artemi Panarin, and the guy actually signed with them when they sucked because.....they are the effing Rangers.
These are thigs that would NEVER happen to the Flames. The Flames put up their 2nd best season in the history of the franchise and still our best players go scurrying away like a bunch of scalded dogs. "Wahhhh I don't wanna play in Canada" Same as that piece of smelly #### Fox.
You cannot look at a team like the Rangers and expect the Flames to make a turn around like that so quickly. The only way that will happen here is if they smash some grand slam homeruns in the NHL entry draft, and the best chance of having that happen is having a crap ton of picks.....which they don't at this point.
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All of those numbers are debatable. But for the two lowest ones - NYR never bottomed out, just a retool. And for PIT, they won a lottery and got the best player of the 21st century for it (along with 2 other HOFers, in a span of 2 years). If you can guarantee that we'll get a Crosby, then I'll buy into the 4 years for PIT argument, but otherwise, they are the fortunate exception, not a viable example.
Also, you can't just leave all the bad ones off the list (OTT, BUF, EDM, ARI) and list the most successful.
Even if you average it out, the average rebuild is not 20+ years, no matter how you spin it. I didn't think that NJD, or CAR are extremely successful rebuilds at this point. Also, EDM is 13 years. ARI was playing with league money, and didn't seem like it was attempting to build a contender as much as to save money on its rosters. OTT is 6 years into their rebuild, they went to the conference final 7 years ago. It's 12 years of not making the playoffs for BUF, but the handling of Eichel didn't help, 16 years since they were in the confernce final.
I calculated the numbers for a top 5 pick in another thread:
Spoiler!
Quote:
Originally Posted by gvitaly
I wanted to add to the top 5 pick discussion, so here's the draft pick summary from 2004-2019.
You can argue that I miscategorized a couple of players, but this is just to give the general idea of the types of players we can get with each top 5 pick and the probability for each tier.
Top pair/First line (40%): Wheeler(04), Kessel(06), B. Schenn(09), M. Rielly(12), E. Lindholm(13), Hanifin(15)
Second pair/Top 6 (20%): Alzner(07), Niederreiter(10), R. Strome(11)
3rd line/5th D (13%): L. Schenn(08), Hayton(18)
Bust/Depth (13%): Dal Colle(14), Juolevi(16)
Not enough NHL games so far to even speculate: Turcotte(19)
Feel free to move players around between the categories if you think I got some of them wrong, but that's a good starting point. For example both Marner and Backstrom could be considered 1st liners, Hanifin a 2nd pairing D etc.
With the 1st overall, you essentially get an 80% chance to get either a top line or a franchise player. The rest of the top 5 picks give you a ~45% chance. Those are pretty good odds, especially if you bottom out for 3–4 years.
