Israel declares war on Hamas

[blankall]

Originally Posted by Fuzz

"Ben-Gvir, Israel's firebrand national security minister"


This seems more than just some obscure back bencher. This is the guy heavily involved making the calls.


Is it so hard to comprehend there are Israeli's that feel this way?

Israeli politics are far more varied than anything in North America. The parliamentary system is also extremely fractured and forming any kind of government relies on forming alliances with fringe parties and attracting fringe voters.

The far right's dreams are no more likely to be fulfilled than those of the communist members who end up as coalitions on the left.

There's literally a party called the "Communist Party of Israel" that holds 3 seats. This is their official party logo:



There are about 60 political parties that run for election in Israel and many of those parties are actually composed of alliances of multiple parties:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o...ties_in_Israel

Choosing any member of the Knesset as representative of all Israelis is absurd.

[blankall]

Originally Posted by Leondros

How many times does this need to be dispelled? 70% of the population of Gaza is under the age of 30. The last elections to take place in Gaza were 2006. To be an age of majority (18, same as Canada) you would have to be 35 years old today. As such over 70% of the population had no hand in voting in Hamas and they never had the opportunity to elect their leaders.

Unfortunately, younger generations often bear the consequences of the actions of older generations. The moment that Hamas was elected, it set things on a path directly towards a major military conflict. That's Hamas' sole purpose. It took Hamas close to two decades to build up their military strength and have the right opportunity to declare war on Israel.

The children that didn't vote for Hamas, when they were elected, became the militants who actually took part in the war against Israel.

No one (besides corrupt Hamas officials) are benefiting from Hamas being in power. The only way to remove them is by force, either external or internal.

[PepsiFree]

Funny that people quickly panic to create the strawman that Ben-Gvir doesn’t represent “all Israeli’s” when not a single person suggested as much.

Nobody wants to deal with the fact that he’s a significant part of the current government that is actually making decisions, I guess.

[Fuzz]

Originally Posted by blankall

Israeli politics are far more varied than anything in North America. The parliamentary system is also extremely fractured and forming any kind of government relies on forming alliances with fringe parties and attracting fringe voters.

The far right's dreams are no more likely to be fulfilled than those of the communist members who end up as coalitions on the left.

There's literally a party called the "Communist Party of Israel" that holds 3 seats. This is their official party logo:



There are about 60 political parties that run for election in Israel and many of those parties are actually composed of alliances of multiple parties:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o...ties_in_Israel

Choosing any member of the Knesset as representative of all Israelis is absurd.

OK, what does that have to do with Ben-Gvir? Are you suggesting the national security minister has no power or sway?

[blankall]

Originally Posted by Fuzz

OK, what does that have to do with Ben-Gvir? Are you suggesting the national security minister has no power or sway?

His desire to have Israelis back in Gaza represents a very small minority. Israelis moving back into Gaza permanently is a very very unlikely outcome. You're purposely attempting to use terms like "sway" to suggest that he has some ability to actually put his fringe beliefs into practice.

Ben-Gvir has zero ability to move settlers into Gaza. That would, at the very least, a majority of one of the actual major parties to pull that off.

This is all an awful red herring anyways. If the Palestinians were ruled by a coalition and Hamas was a minority group with 3-4 seats, you might have a point. But that's not the way the government of Gaza works. Hamas has total control.

[Flames Fan, Ph.D.]

Originally Posted by Azure

I think we should reassess it as far as following the billions of dollars that have been sent to Gaza that has been used not for aid, but to help Hamas build up military infrastructure to attack Israel.

When can we do that?

lol

No one in this thread supports Hamas.

It's ok, my question was more rhetorical. The non-answers are answers enough.

[Fuzz]

Ok, well clearly you aren't prepared to acknowledge their are member of Israeli government who have a fairly brutal view of what should follow, and are in a position to influence that. If you say "no they aren't", then how many people above the national security minister do have that sway, feel strongly that is wrong, and who are they?

[Leondros]

Originally Posted by blankall

Unfortunately, younger generations often bear the consequences of the actions of older generations. The moment that Hamas was elected, it set things on a path directly towards a major military conflict. That's Hamas' sole purpose. It took Hamas close to two decades to build up their military strength and have the right opportunity to declare war on Israel.

The children that didn't vote for Hamas, when they were elected, became the militants who actually took part in the war against Israel.

No one (besides corrupt Hamas officials) are benefiting from Hamas being in power. The only way to remove them is by force, either external or internal.

Sure, I don't disagree with any of the above. But it is still inappropriate and unacceptable to say Hamas is a representation of the people - especially when a democratic election hasn't occurred since 2006. Can the same be said for Israel and its elections and government?

[Language]

Originally Posted by PepsiFree

Funny that people quickly panic to create the strawman that Ben-Gvir doesn’t represent “all Israeli’s” when not a single person suggested as much.

Nobody wants to deal with the fact that he’s a significant part of the current government that is actually making decisions, I guess.

There is no panic and no strawman. The whole discussion started when WCW asserted that Ben Gvir’s comments amounted to “for anyone who still thinks this war is about just eliminating Hamas”, somewhat implying that this is the prevailing view.

My point is that Ben Gvir is a fringe element of the government and his views, while extreme, are not representative of the majority. I’m not sure why this is hard to understand. As blankall pointed out, the Israeli government is very fractured.

Frankly, I cringe whenever I see anything said by Ben Gvir or Smotrich.


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[blankall]

Originally Posted by Leondros

Sure, I don't disagree with any of the above. But it is still inappropriate and unacceptable to say Hamas is a representation of the people - especially when a democratic election hasn't occurred since 2006. Can the same be said for Israel and its elections and government?

By your definition, there could never be any "representative" of the people of Gaza, as most people are minors and cannot vote. Nevermind the fact that the majority of actual voters would re-vote for Hamas.

[Flames Fan, Ph.D.]

Originally Posted by blankall

By your definition, there could never be any "representative" of the people of Gaza, as most people are minors and cannot vote.Nevermind the fact that the majority of actual voters would re-vote for Hamas.

Whoah, Nate Silver is in the thread!

[WCW Nitro]

Originally Posted by Language

There is no panic and no strawman. The whole discussion started when WCW asserted that Ben Gvir’s comments amounted to “for anyone who still thinks this war is about just eliminating Hamas”, somewhat implying that this is the prevailing view.

My point is that Ben Gvir is a fringe element of the government and his views, while extreme, are not representative of the majority. I’m not sure why this is hard to understand. As blankall pointed out, the Israeli government is very fractured.

Frankly, I cringe whenever I see anything said by Ben Gvir or Smotrich.


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The only thing I "asserted" is that for people who think this conflict is just about the elimination of Hamas should actually listen to what some high ranking Israeli officials are saying. And how did this supposedly fringe guy become such a high ranking minister? Oh, and his party finished third in the last elections with over 10% of the vote.

[Leondros]

Originally Posted by blankall

By your definition, there could never be any "representative" of the people of Gaza, as most people are minors and cannot vote. Nevermind the fact that the majority of actual voters would re-vote for Hamas.

Well that is not true. Over half of Gazans are over the age of 17. So if there was a vote today the majority would get to have a say in a fair democratic election (assuming of course you could). That is also assuming Israel doesn't intervene again like they did to help create another player like they did Hamas.

For reference about 80% of Canadians are over the age of 17. If in Canada we did not have an election since 2006 that would be roughly 40% assuming a similar distribution of ages over that period of time. That is very significant.

Is the bolded part of your statement grounded in any facts? Or are we introducing personal opinion, Counsellor?

[Azure]

Originally Posted by Flames Fan, Ph.D.

lol

No one in this thread supports Hamas.

It's ok, my question was more rhetorical. The non-answers are answers enough.

You're right, nobody in this thread does support Hamas, though lots like to make excuses for everything and blame Israel.

On the other hand, countries throughout the world who have sent billions directly into the hands of Hamas without demanding accountability for the aid, do they support Hamas?

I mean you like to point out that Israel has in the past used Hamas to their own advantage. What about other countries who benefit from a constant powder keg in Gaza?

[blankall]

Originally Posted by Leondros

Well that is not true. Over half of Gazans are over the age of 17. So if there was a vote today the majority would get to have a say in a fair democratic election (assuming of course you could). That is also assuming Israel doesn't intervene again like they did to help create another player like they did Hamas.

For reference about 80% of Canadians are over the age of 17. If in Canada we did not have an election since 2006 that would be roughly 40% assuming a similar distribution of ages over that period of time. That is very significant.

Is the bolded part of your statement grounded in any facts? Or are we introducing personal opinion, Counsellor?

The idea that Israel intervened to help Hamas win the election is complete BS. Hamas was elected in 2006. Hamas was founded in 1983. In 1984 Israel arrested their leader. Prior to 1983, Hamas was simply the Muslim Brotherhood, which was a well established organization that had been in existence since 1928.

[Flames Fan, Ph.D.]

Originally Posted by Azure

You're right, nobody in this thread does support Hamas, though lots like to make excuses for everything and blame Israel.

This is what you fail to understand. I have no interest in blaming Israel. I'm just interested in having clarity about what the Israeli government is doing.

The reason for that is their actions are grave, and many posters here are still not admitting to themselves what the Israeli government's endgame is even though it is being articulated in the open.

Blame doesn't interest me.

[PepsiFree]

Originally Posted by Language

There is no panic and no strawman. The whole discussion started when WCW asserted that Ben Gvir’s comments amounted to “for anyone who still thinks this war is about just eliminating Hamas”, somewhat implying that this is the prevailing view.

My point is that Ben Gvir is a fringe element of the government and his views, while extreme, are not representative of the majority. I’m not sure why this is hard to understand. As blankall pointed out, the Israeli government is very fractured.

Frankly, I cringe whenever I see anything said by Ben Gvir or Smotrich.


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I don’t see that as the implication at all.

When determining what the war is actually about, the beliefs of government officials that have direct influence are very relevant. It doesn’t mean to suggest it’s the prevalent view, but that even pro-war Israeli’s who think the war is just about eliminating Hamas might be wrong.

[Leondros]

Originally Posted by blankall

The idea that Israel intervened to help Hamas win the election is complete BS. Hamas was elected in 2006. Hamas was founded in 1983. In 1984 Israel arrested their leader. Prior to 1983, Hamas was simply the Muslim Brotherhood, which was a well established organization that had been in existence since 1928.

No where did I mention they intervened to get Hamas elected. You will see I said "intervene again like they did to help create another player like they did Hamas." It has been documented that without the help of Israel, Hamas would not have been able to survive. It was the lesser of two evils with the PLO. I do not blame them.

“Hamas, to my great regret, is Israel’s creation,” retired Israeli official Avner Cohen, who worked in Gaza for more than two decades, told journalist Andrew Higgins in a 2009 Wall Street Journal article, describing it as an “enormous, stupid mistake.”

In the same piece, headlined “How Israel Helped To Spawn Hamas,” David Hacham, who also worked in Gaza in the late 1980s and early 1990s as an Arab affairs expert in the Israeli military, said: “When I look back at the chain of events, I think we made a mistake. But at the time, nobody thought about the possible results.”

But it’s also true that the Israeli government originally viewed Hamas primarily as a religious and charitable organization.

It believed that by supporting Hamas, it could use it as a counterweight to undermine a secular terrorist organization which it considered a greater threat — the Palestine Liberation Organization, founded in 1964 and headed by Yasser Arafat, leader of the Fatah movement.

Israeli governments formed an unofficial alliance with Hamas’ spiritual leader, Sheikh Ahmed Ismail Hassan Yassin, a wheel-chair bound, nearly blind paraplegic who founded Hamas’ forerunner in Gaza, an Islamist group called Mujama al-Islamiya.

With the quiet approval of Israeli authorities, Yassin built up a network of schools, clinics, blood banks, daycare centres, youth groups and even a university, as well as recognizing Mujama al-Islamiya as a charity, permitting it to raise funds through donations.

[blankall]

Originally Posted by Leondros

No where did I mention they intervened to get Hamas elected. You will see I said "intervene again like they did to help create another player like they did Hamas." It has been documented that without the help of Israel, Hamas would not have been able to survive. It was the lesser of two evils with the PLO. I do not blame them.

What did Israel actually do to "support Hamas"? I've heard this argument many times. They certainly attacked Fatah, who until the PLO was established was solely a militant organization.

It hasn't been "documented" anywhere that Hamas wouldn't have been "able to survive" without Israel. Israel, in hindsight, should have stamped Hamas out right away. That being said, just randomly storming a bunch of mosques wouldn't have gone over so well.

Especially as the Muslim Brotherhood had denounced violence in the 1970s. It wasn't until the split that created Hamas that Hamas began promoting violence. And, once again, Israel immediately confronted Hamas as soon as it was created.

So how was Israel going to arbitrarily take out a religious and social organization that had denounced violence?

Edit: Israel didn't have an alliance with Yassin.

They recognized Mujama al-Islamiya as a charity, which they were, in 1979. In 1984, Mujama al-Islamiya, were exposed to be liars and hadn't actually renounced violence, as Israel discovered a weapons cache and then immediately began arresting its members.

So, once again, in hindsight, trusting the word of Yassin was a mistake, but there was nothing to indicate that things would go the way they did. Israel also didn't promote Yassin or help him, they merely stood out of his way for a few years before beginning a major campaign against him in 1984.

[Leondros]

Originally Posted by blankall

What did Israel actually do to "support Hamas"? I've heard this argument many times. They certainly attacked Fatah, who until the PLO was established was solely a militant organization.

It hasn't been "documented" anywhere that Hamas wouldn't have been "able to survive" without Israel. Israel, in hindsight, should have stamped Hamas out right away. That being said, just randomly storming a bunch of mosques wouldn't have gone over so well.

Especially as the Muslim Brotherhood had denounced violence in the 1970s. It wasn't until the split that created Hamas that Hamas began promoting violence. And, once again, Israel immediately confronted Hamas as soon as it was created.

So how was Israel going to arbitrarily take out a religious and social organization that had denounced violence?

I found this article to be the main form of reference upon which other articles are written. It gives first hand accounts, interviews and details on the formation of Hamas and specifically how Israel was involved.

https://web.archive.org/web/20090926...295011847.html

They did eventually turn on the organization upon its formal creation in the last 80's but by that time the cat was out of the bag.