2022-23 Flu/covid/RSV season

[Ozy_Flame]

Originally Posted by Mr.Coffee

Docs also trying to limit / restrict NPs because it threatens their career / earnings.

Absolute bull####. Where are you gleaning this kind of crap from? The Smith and Lagrange circus act?

This is the kind of misinformation that weighs on an already strained system. Docs need the help of NPs but under no circumstances can docs be replaced by them. NPs are not qualified to perform the same services as doctors - they perform primary care, and physicians perform medical diagnoses, specialty care, and treatments.


It's this kind of demonization as just another reason why docs continue to leave the province and residency spots get unfilled. Do better than spew political conjecture.

[Cali Panthers Fan]

Originally Posted by Sliver

Years of facts from the left.

There are a limited number of healthcare workers. If we remove some from the public system then rich people will get better care than people of lesser financial means. The only people who would want that are selfish. Not selfish in the colloquial sense where you'd kind of lob that as an insult, but selfish in the sober and objective definition of the word.

To think my health is more important and my ills can be addressed better and faster than someone with less money is an absolutely untenable stance to me. It's abhorrent.

Healthcare workers moving from the public sector to the private sector would make the public system even worse. People advocating for that are horrible people and terrible community members. Let's bolster the public system so it stays communal and fair.

The wealthy should be insentivised to put more money into public healthcare if they want better services. Private healthcare should be illegal. If you want better healthcare and don't mind paying more for it, then why wouldn't you advocate for higher taxes so healthcare is better for all? That's what I think we should do. I'm not going to walk by a waiting room of suffering people on my way to a VIP clinic where I get superior healthcare. I wouldn't want to live with myself if that was the type of guy I was. I would literally rather die than take away services from other people so they suffer because I paid a doctor to look at me first.

I'm also bothered when I read people in this thread supporting a two-tiered system based on their own ignorance. Pylon, you didn't fricken get a heart condition from a vaccine. Sorry, but you just didn't. You're not a scientist. You're a 50-year-old dude and you are going to encounter more and more health issues as you age (we all are). The vaccine is safe and there is all the evidence in the world to support that statement.

But somebody has to help me with this: how much are you guys in favour of a two-tiered system willing to pay per year to have better healthcare than your fellow Albertans? Like, if we can put a number on that and maybe figure out what it is as a percentage of your salary, maybe we get to a palatable number that could be considered as a tax increase for everyone to be put towards better healthcare for all. If it's 1‰ or 3‰...whatever it might be...let's do it. Let's pay more tax so we can all take care of each other.

I'm absolutely with you ideologically, but I do think that the bolded is something you won't know how you will respond to until you get really, really sick. In those moments, you may want quicker access to the best possible care. It's only natural to look out for yourself when your life is on the line.

Not saying that's the spirit of your post, but it is something to reflect upon for each of us.

[Mr.Coffee]

Originally Posted by Ozy_Flame

Absolute bull####. Where are you gleaning this kind of crap from? The Smith and Lagrange circus act?

This is the kind of misinformation that weighs on an already strained system. Docs need the help of NPs but under no circumstances can docs be replaced by them. NPs are not qualified to perform the same services as doctors - they perform primary care, and physicians perform medical diagnoses, specialty care, and treatments.


It's this kind of demonization as just another reason why docs continue to leave the province and residency spots get unfilled. Do better than spew political conjecture.

Anecdotal, based on what I am hearing of things. Also agree with you docs cannot be replaced by NPs but there is a lot of job protectionism going on with the current system for some certain roles doctors play that could be adjusted; there’s actually a lot of little examples. I’ll give you another one, the requirement to go get a prescription for simple #### that a doctor need not be the one to give but that other health care professionals absolutely are qualified for, yet are not allowed to. You need to see a doc to get an asthma puffer or topical cortisone steroid prescription refilled? Mmm yeah okay…… ONLY docs can do that right?? I call BS.

[Sliver]

Originally Posted by Cali Panthers Fan

I'm absolutely with you ideologically, but I do think that the bolded is something you won't know how you will respond to until you get really, really sick. In those moments, you may want quicker access to the best possible care. It's only natural to look out for yourself when your life is on the line.

Not saying that's the spirit of your post, but it is something to reflect upon for each of us.

That's why these decisions need to be made and rules solidified by unbiased and unemotional people. You could be right, but I don't want that option because I know I could exercise it, but others couldn't.

Reflection has taken place on this subject. I took my mom to the ER in April and she died in the hospital without ever leaving it again. We were in th ER for about nine hours and she was unbelievably sick. There were no seats for hours and she sat on my lap. It was insane. I couldn't help but think of all the times she had voted conservative as she was lamenting the sad state of healthcare. I don't want to go through that again for anyone I love or myself,
but I also don't want anybody else to go through that. I want to pay more taxes for the betterment of Albertans. I don't want to buy my way out of personal problems so somebody with less money has to go through what I did with my mom. I want better healthcare, but I want it for everyone. That should really be the default position and I don't understand how anyone could think different.

[Cali Panthers Fan]

NPs and PAs (Physicians Assistants) are the future for primary care. Have 1-2 MDs overseeing 10-20 of these people and you have your basic care handled.

Most people don't have major health issues but yet cannot get seen in a timely manner. It's not that different down here with private health care. Have a tiered system in terms of expertise and need and you could easily fix a lot of issues. MDs are there for anything more serious than your normal day to day illnesses/injuries. Elevate it to an MD appointment when the PA or NP cannot handle the case.

[Ozy_Flame]

Originally Posted by Cali Panthers Fan

NPs and PAs (Physicians Assistants) are the future for primary care. Have 1-2 MDs overseeing 10-20 of these people and you have your basic care handled.

Most people don't have major health issues but yet cannot get seen in a timely manner. It's not that different down here with private health care. Have a tiered system in terms of expertise and need and you could easily fix a lot of issues. MDs are there for anything more serious than your normal day to day illnesses/injuries. Elevate it to an MD appointment when the PA or NP cannot handle the case.

Physicians need to be in front of the diagnoses and medical treatments. NPs are absolutely not qualified to take care of those things. Physicians would also prefer to be in front of actual diagnoses and more complex scenarios, part of the reason why they're tied up and long wait times exist is because they are actively dealing with routine things at NPs and other primary caregivers can provide.

There are people in this thread that say there are lots of anecdotal evidence for physicians trying to protect their jobs, but I can throw anecdotes right back and say that's absolutely not the case because physicians who know their position also know what the position of nurse practitioners can do. A lot of physiciand do not want to be tied up with the minutia of administrative and routine work. That's the kind of stuff that gets them burnt out and want to leave and find other areas of work or specialization.

Things like routine prescription refills, basic first aid and medication and nursing care while waiting for physicians are what NPs can take care of. That's it. NPs are definitely not medical doctors, not qualified to do what physicians can do, and work best under the supervision and oversight of an MD.

[BlackArcher101]

Fine, let's do a 2-tier system so those with money can get the service they want. But let's put a 20% services tax on it, which then goes to prop up the public system.

[Cali Panthers Fan]

Originally Posted by Ozy_Flame

Physicians need to be in front of the diagnoses and medical treatments. NPs are absolutely not qualified to take care of those things. Physicians would also prefer to be in front of actual diagnoses and more complex scenarios, part of the reason why they're tied up and long wait times exist is because they are actively dealing with routine things at NPs and other primary caregivers can provide.

There are people in this thread that say there are lots of anecdotal evidence for physicians trying to protect their jobs, but I can throw anecdotes right back and say that's absolutely not the case because physicians who know their position also know what the position of nurse practitioners can do. A lot of physiciand do not want to be tied up with the minutia of administrative and routine work. That's the kind of stuff that gets them burnt out and want to leave and find other areas of work or specialization.

Things like routine prescription refills, basic first aid and medication and nursing care while waiting for physicians are what NPs can take care of. That's it. NPs are definitely not medical doctors, not qualified to do what physicians can do, and work best under the supervision and oversight of an MD.

okay...at what point did I say that they were not under supervision of an MD? That's the point. Have 1-2 MD's handling a lot of oversight for simple stuff. I get why you're bristling at underqualified people handling things on their own, but that's not what I said. If you want to save money/resources, you have to compromise somewhere.

[Ozy_Flame]

I think we're saying the same thing.

Docs need NPs to lighten the load. Most docs are not threatened by them as has been claimed by someone obviously on the outside, unless of course the UCP are positioning them as alternatives to physician care, much like they're trying to do by legitimizing naturopaths.

Nurses have also been found to have higher level of anti-vaccine positions during the pandemic, so I wouldn't be surprised to see the premier - an anti-vaxxer herself - want to establish more authority to those more likely to find similar contrarian, anti-scientific positions. It wouldn't surprise me to know the premier wants to push more of this through the healthcare system, and see NPs as a method to do that.

Also, good chance anti-vaxx rights are going to be enshrined and protected in legislation in Alberta in 2024.

[Mr.Coffee]

Originally Posted by Ozy_Flame

Physicians need to be in front of the diagnoses and medical treatments. NPs are absolutely not qualified to take care of those things. Physicians would also prefer to be in front of actual diagnoses and more complex scenarios, part of the reason why they're tied up and long wait times exist is because they are actively dealing with routine things at NPs and other primary caregivers can provide.

There are people in this thread that say there are lots of anecdotal evidence for physicians trying to protect their jobs, but I can throw anecdotes right back and say that's absolutely not the case because physicians who know their position also know what the position of nurse practitioners can do. A lot of physiciand do not want to be tied up with the minutia of administrative and routine work. That's the kind of stuff that gets them burnt out and want to leave and find other areas of work or specialization.

Things like routine prescription refills, basic first aid and medication and nursing care while waiting for physicians are what NPs can take care of. That's it. NPs are definitely not medical doctors, not qualified to do what physicians can do, and work best under the supervision and oversight of an MD.

Agree with everything you wrote here. No debate about any of that.

[Bill Bumface]

Originally Posted by Mr.Coffee

But I’m not sure why we decided to build an Alberta Childrens Hospital with roughly the same amount of beds as the previous, making sure we get a gigantic cafeteria, Good Earth, gift shop and other coffee shop in there plus other seemingly wasteful spaces, (this isn’t a mall and doesn’t need to be FFS)

I know a former Alberta Deputy Minister quite well. I can't speak to the Children's specifically, but I do know the reason the South Health Campus ended up with a very small bed count yet has huge room sizes and things like an indoor climbing wall was, in fact, due to government issues at the time.

They had a massive infrastructure budget to spend, but staffing budgets for AHS meant that building too many beds would have poor optics as they wouldn't be staffed and in use. Hopefully they designed these buildings to facilitate renovations that can claw back some of the less useful space.

[Mr.Coffee]

Originally Posted by Bill Bumface

I know a former Alberta Deputy Minister quite well. I can't speak to the Children's specifically, but I do know the reason the South Health Campus ended up with a very small bed count yet has huge room sizes and things like an indoor climbing wall was, in fact, due to government issues at the time.

They had a massive infrastructure budget to spend, but staffing budgets for AHS meant that building too many beds would have poor optics as they wouldn't be staffed and in use. Hopefully they designed these buildings to facilitate renovations that can claw back some of the less useful space.

Oh they definitely did. Absolutely did. They built these things to be expanded and manipulated to the cows come home. And that’s great. But it doesn’t mean that it’s happened. Look at the plot of land both hospitals are on. Clearly expansion was planned. But have they happened yet? No. Why not?

They’re late.

We already need a new full hospital. Fully staffed. We are literally a full hospital, fully staffed, short, for Calgary. It’s insane! When’s the next built, 2030?! Is anything even in the works???

And yeah, sorry Ozy, the doc / NP sitch is straight up ####ed. Amongst other health care issues. What- you’re debating this?!? Why?! How?? Your anecdote vs mine??? Nah.

Also, like, I know I am not wrong about this, so… ???????????

[Hockeyguy15]

Originally Posted by undercoverbrother

This could be because he was in pediatric care.

I took my son to the South Hospital in July when he his head was smashed open.

The posted wait time for adults was 4hrs, but because he is 17 he got into pediatrics.

We were maybe, 2hrs, but a big chunk of that was blood loss control and freezing.

It was super fast and quick considering the size of the hole in his head.

Adult wait time suck

Kid wait times aren't actually much better. We had to wait 4+ hours when my son broke his elbow. My nephew also had to wait 4+ hours when he was sick an needed a steroid for his cough.

[Whynotnow]

Originally Posted by Hockeyguy15

Kid wait times aren't actually much better. We had to wait 4+ hours when my son broke his elbow. My nephew also had to wait 4+ hours when he was sick an needed a steroid for his cough.

Broken bones can be the worst as you just keep getting bumped down if the kid isn’t struggling. Spent a whole night in emergency in the summer with a kid with a broken ankle. Got finally treated at 4am and walked out to an absolutely empty ER. Learned a valuable lesson, stay home, get some sleep at home, wake up at 3:30 and head in. Crazy to have to do that.

[Ozy_Flame]

Originally Posted by Mr.Coffee

And yeah, sorry Ozy, the doc / NP sitch is straight up ####ed. Amongst other health care issues. What- you’re debating this?!? Why?! How?? Your anecdote vs mine??? Nah.

Also, like, I know I am not wrong about this, so… ???????????

Your anecdote had physicians looking like greedy weasels. I'm well deep in the MD community in both Alberta and Ontario, and I know what many, many docs think about NPs and where they can help.

I'm not wrong about mine either. I talk to docs nearly every damn day.

Contrary to popular belief, lots of physicians don't want extra hours doing administrative or primary care. They'd rather go home to their kids and have a life outside work.

[Azure]

Originally Posted by Sliver

Years of facts from the left.

There are a limited number of healthcare workers. If we remove some from the public system then rich people will get better care than people of lesser financial means. The only people who would want that are selfish. Not selfish in the colloquial sense where you'd kind of lob that as an insult, but selfish in the sober and objective definition of the word.

To think my health is more important and my ills can be addressed better and faster than someone with less money is an absolutely untenable stance to me. It's abhorrent.

Healthcare workers moving from the public sector to the private sector would make the public system even worse. People advocating for that are horrible people and terrible community members. Let's bolster the public system so it stays communal and fair.

The wealthy should be insentivised to put more money into public healthcare if they want better services. Private healthcare should be illegal. If you want better healthcare and don't mind paying more for it, then why wouldn't you advocate for higher taxes so healthcare is better for all? That's what I think we should do. I'm not going to walk by a waiting room of suffering people on my way to a VIP clinic where I get superior healthcare. I wouldn't want to live with myself if that was the type of guy I was. I would literally rather die than take away services from other people so they suffer because I paid a doctor to look at me first.

I'm also bothered when I read people in this thread supporting a two-tiered system based on their own ignorance. Pylon, you didn't fricken get a heart condition from a vaccine. Sorry, but you just didn't. You're not a scientist. You're a 50-year-old dude and you are going to encounter more and more health issues as you age (we all are). The vaccine is safe and there is all the evidence in the world to support that statement.

But somebody has to help me with this: how much are you guys in favour of a two-tiered system willing to pay per year to have better healthcare than your fellow Albertans? Like, if we can put a number on that and maybe figure out what it is as a percentage of your salary, maybe we get to a palatable number that could be considered as a tax increase for everyone to be put towards better healthcare for all. If it's 1‰ or 3‰...whatever it might be...let's do it. Let's pay more tax so we can all take care of each other.

Between you and Fuzz, perfect example of ridiculous rhetoric of why nothing will ever change.

"People like you..."

What have the Feds (Liberals & NDP) done to make the system better? This the left we are talking about in case you didn't catch that. By all accounts they have made it worse across the board.

Increased taxes don't solve anything without a proper plan in place. There is literally no example of a single government both provincial and federal in the past 10-20 years that has done anything to fix a single part of the system. Year after year things have just gotten worse. But hey, if we just tax the people a LITTLE more, amirite?

Go look at the health care spending trends the past 10 years. It has gone up progressively, and yet almost every aspect of the system is getting worse.

No Canadian should support any government that doesn't have a 20-30 year in plan in place to fix this problem.

[Azure]

Originally Posted by Sliver

That's why these decisions need to be made and rules solidified by unbiased and unemotional people. You could be right, but I don't want that option because I know I could exercise it, but others couldn't.

Reflection has taken place on this subject. I took my mom to the ER in April and she died in the hospital without ever leaving it again. We were in th ER for about nine hours and she was unbelievably sick. There were no seats for hours and she sat on my lap. It was insane. I couldn't help but think of all the times she had voted conservative as she was lamenting the sad state of healthcare. I don't want to go through that again for anyone I love or myself,
but I also don't want anybody else to go through that. I want to pay more taxes for the betterment of Albertans. I don't want to buy my way out of personal problems so somebody with less money has to go through what I did with my mom. I want better healthcare, but I want it for everyone. That should really be the default position and I don't understand how anyone could think different.

I know families right now that have sat 30 hours in emergency waiting for care. Some of them have chosen to take their loved ones home and try to help them there. This is the reality of the system we are living in.

At this point it is completely insane to think that any politician in this country is capable of dealing with this issue, nor should anyone trust them.

Health care decision making needs to be removed from the hands of elected politicians.

[Hockeyguy15]

Originally Posted by Azure

Between you and Fuzz, perfect example of ridiculous rhetoric of why nothing will ever change.

"People like you..."

What have the Feds (Liberals & NDP) done to make the system better? This the left we are talking about in case you didn't catch that. By all accounts they have made it worse across the board.

Increased taxes don't solve anything without a proper plan in place. There is literally no example of a single government both provincial and federal in the past 10-20 years that has done anything to fix a single part of the system. Year after year things have just gotten worse. But hey, if we just tax the people a LITTLE more, amirite?

Go look at the health care spending trends the past 10 years. It has gone up progressively, and yet almost every aspect of the system is getting worse.

No Canadian should support any government that doesn't have a 20-30 year in plan in place to fix this problem.

Province's are in charge of running their own health care. Did you vote UCP? They do not have a plan to make healthcare better.

[Azure]

Originally Posted by Mr.Coffee

Oh they definitely did. Absolutely did. They built these things to be expanded and manipulated to the cows come home. And that’s great. But it doesn’t mean that it’s happened. Look at the plot of land both hospitals are on. Clearly expansion was planned. But have they happened yet? No. Why not?

They’re late.

We already need a new full hospital. Fully staffed. We are literally a full hospital, fully staffed, short, for Calgary. It’s insane! When’s the next built, 2030?! Is anything even in the works???

And yeah, sorry Ozy, the doc / NP sitch is straight up ####ed. Amongst other health care issues. What- you’re debating this?!? Why?! How?? Your anecdote vs mine??? Nah.

Also, like, I know I am not wrong about this, so… ???????????

And think, Alberta actually has money to spend. Most other provinces are not dealing with a resource rich economy.

Even here in Manitoba the incoming NDP government shut down construction on PC approved long-term care homes because 'budget.'

Local leaders in the Lac du Bonnet area say many seniors and families are frustrated as construction of a new personal care home is in limbo. Shovels were supposed to hit the ground shortly, but the province has put a pause on the project, and it’s not the only one.

Construction on a 92-bed personal care home was supposed to start on an empty field in Lac du Bonnet, but it’s been put on hold.

"Here we are today in the 11th hour, 12th hour being told by the province we’re going to put a pause on this," said Loren Schinkel, the reeve for the rural municipality of Lac du Bonnet.

The new NDP government put the brakes on the care home, at least for now. It was one of six announced in July by the previous Progressive Conservative government.

https://winnipeg.ctvnews.ca/delay-of...tion-1.6693012

First announced by previous to previous NDP government, then approved by previous PC government, then stopped by new NDP government. Its like a clown show.

And we think the system will change. Hilarious.

[Azure]

Originally Posted by Hockeyguy15

Province's are in charge of running their own health care. Did you vote UCP? They do not have a plan to make healthcare better.

I am not from Alberta, nor would I vote for the UCP if I were.

But its clear that a lot of Albertans here have a short-sighted viewpoint on healthcare that doesn't stray far from 'UCP BADD!!@#!@#' rhetoric.

All other provinces are dealing with the same problem, and it really doesn't matter what government is in charge.

The reason I target the feds is because federal health transfers are a major way to dictate health policy, and immigration is causing a breakdown in the system across all fronts.