Too many [mod edit]: people with quads, 4x4s...

[Bobblehead]

I feel bad for people like the members of the Jeep Club that stayed behind to clean up as much of the mess that they can. They are proof that there are responsible people who could probably pursue this activity without the rampant destruction that is being witnessed.

But there are now so many people with so much disposable income that the number of people who can and want to off road has become unmanageable. It is a really, really fun activity. But the environmental cost is becoming too great. The areas set aside for these activities are now too small for the number of people who want to be able to do them, and the damage the occurs takes decades for nature to repair.

I'm not sure that there is a palatable compromise to this issue.

[FireFly]

Originally Posted by Cowboy89

Nobody goes to Mclean Creek without 4X4ing, knowing people there 4X4ing, or watching 4X4ing. As for the guy that got beat up, he got beat up because some group's generator got unplugged somehow and they thought it was that guy and all hell broke loose. A couple of idiots as is the case wherever you mix thousands of people and alcohol in one area. I like how you completely let off the female gender despite the fact that there was plenty of them up there getting drunk and causing a ruckus too.

You noticed that did you? It's called generalizing... which is exactly what everyone is doing to 4x4ers. The point still stands that there are idiots destroying the area at most campgrounds, whether or not they are 4x4 specific.

[Locke]

I think one thing that wasn't mentioned is why there are so many idiots out there on may long weekend.

It wouldn't have anything to do with Grad Camping ceremonies would it? The high concentration of drunk 17-19 year olds with their parents Trucks/Quads/Dirtbikes?

I was out at Maclean Creek this weekend, I do drive a Jeep, althoughI dont use it for off-roading (I just really dont want to break it, I kinda like it) but it was great for just getting me to my campsite. I met alot of people out there, as I usually do as people sort of wander about during the day, I like to stay near my camp personally. A bunch of drunk kids came wandering by carrying beer and pellet guns actually.

The worst thing I saw was one kid whose parents gave him a brand new Toyota Tacoma for his graduation. Needless to say it went back home on a flatbed. He drove it through some of the trails and dented the crap out of everything. It looked like it had been rolled over. Then he drove it into a tree. That was the end of his day. He is 17, his truck was 10 days old. I had never met him before but he provided me with loads of entertainment as I sat at my 'campsite' (which was very random ).

Wiaprous is garbage. It used to be the OHV destination, now even they wont touch it because its trashed. Maclean is still alright, but its almost like localized anarchy. People will drive by your campsite hammered in quads in the middle of the night.

The point is, does it do harm? Yes, unquestionably, thats why they localize it. Can you lump everyone out there together? Absolutely not. I met some great guys that go there every year, they quad all day and get drunk all night. Its that seperation that is really key in this situation. Unfortunately most of the people you talk to during the day are out in their trucks/quads/bikes hammered the whole time.

Dont get me wrong, I'm not a fan of 4x4 or quadding. Its just not something I do, my hobby is drag racing which is a totally opposite dynamic compared to off-roading, and it takes place in its own theater and environment, but different strokes for different folks.

I spoke with some of the Jeep club guys, they were really nice guys who were enthusiastic about their hobby. Its just not my hobby, and even they were dismayed about the condition of the place. All these kids would be akin to me taking my (stock) Jeep Grand Cherokee out and tearing around the trails. The end result would likely be wrecked trails and a wrecked Jeep as I am the farthest thing from an experienced off-roader.

Plus my parents aren't the ones who would be paying to fix the damn thing....

Everything taken in perspective.

Locke.

[Thunderball]

Originally Posted by FireFly

Well I don't camp there, so I can't say that I have seen it. However, they certainly do at the campground between Sundre and Olds... what the heck is it called? I can't remember now. But yeah, they do. Probably at most campgrounds.

Are you referring to Westward Ho? If you are, unless things have changed, its a pretty tame place. I camped there for several years, and aside from the odd rowdy and softball tournament, it was pretty controlled. I can count on one hand the amount of times the RCMP had to be called down from Sundre. Of course, this place was trying to appeal to families as they sold seasonal/yearly campsites, but things could have changed.

I know this weekend, I opted to go to a more low-key campground, past Mount Kidd towards Peter Lougheed P.P., since I personally don't go camping to watch some morons ruin the wilderness. To me its about communing with nature, cracking a beer (or several), chopping firewood, putting up tents and tarps and general manly pursuits while breathing in the fresh mountain air and relaxing. Clearly some people think that the wilderness is theirs to destroy, and I think thats appalling.

[FireFly]

Originally Posted by Thunderball

Are you referring to Westward Ho? If you are, unless things have changed, its a pretty tame place. I camped there for several years, and aside from the odd rowdy and softball tournament, it was pretty controlled. I can count on one hand the amount of times the RCMP had to be called down from Sundre. Of course, this place was trying to appeal to families as they sold seasonal/yearly campsites, but things could have changed.

You camped there during May Long? Because when I was in high school, every May long it was taken over by high schoolers from the area... and none of the high schools liked each other which resulted in a LOT of fights, a lot of underage consumption, alcohol poisoning, littering, and just generally bad behavior. The cops were there every year and repeatedly.

[ken0042]

Originally Posted by Thunderball

Clearly some people think that the wilderness is theirs to destroy, and I think thats appalling.

I wonder if there's a mindset out there that because they pay a camping fee, that pays for the cleanup? Once when I was skiing at Sunshine the guy in front of us on the chair lift littered. When we got off the chair the people I was riding up the lift with went off on the guy, and guy's reaction was that because he paid so much to ski, they would have people to clean up after him.

I suppose there's also different sides to this as well. On Global news they focused on how there were just groups of partiers leaving trash all over the place, and how it was the Jeep club sticking around to try and clean up.

[Cowboy89]

There are always a bunch of idiots in any population anywhere. Fact is, if this is happening in Mclean Creek and other designated Offroad places and not in the middle of random crown land then I would celebrate this as a victory for the environmental crowd. This is the point of restricting it to one place. If you 'outlaw' 4X4ing in these places then random tracts of unspoiled land will get ruined and the RCMP will find it impossible to enforce because these people will be randomly distributed in the foothills. It all seems fine and well to 'ban' something, but just because it's banned doesn't eliminate the activity. It'll just be more underground and harder to enforce.

[Thunderball]

Originally Posted by FireFly

You camped there during May Long? Because when I was in high school, every May long it was taken over by high schoolers from the area... and none of the high schools liked each other which resulted in a LOT of fights, a lot of underage consumption, alcohol poisoning, littering, and just generally bad behavior. The cops were there every year and repeatedly.

Yeah, I camped there during May longs... maybe I didn't see it cause its such a huge campground, and they tended to congregate by the softball fields, of which i was on the other side of. Still... the warden was a very large, intimidating fellow, who seemed to keep the people in line for the most part.

[Thunderball]

Originally Posted by Cowboy89

There are always a bunch of idiots in any population anywhere. Fact is, if this is happening in Mclean Creek and other designated Offroad places and not in the middle of random crown land then I would celebrate this as a victory for the environmental crowd. This is the point of restricting it to one place. If you 'outlaw' 4X4ing in these places then random tracts of unspoiled land will get ruined and the RCMP will find it impossible to enforce because these people will be randomly distributed in the foothills. It all seems fine and well to 'ban' something, but just because it's banned doesn't eliminate the activity. It'll just be more underground and harder to enforce.

Yep... I guess its better to put it near Bragg Creek (which isn't as scenic) than in Spray Lakes, or some of the truly gorgeous parts of Western Alberta. Its just a shame that area will be totally destroyed.

[Cowboy89]

Originally Posted by Thunderball

Yep... I guess its better to put it near Bragg Creek (which isn't as scenic) than in Spray Lakes, or some of the truly gorgeous parts of Western Alberta. Its just a shame that area will be totally destroyed.

Yeah it would be a shame if Spray lakes and other areas were ruined due to a few idiots (I think you know exactly which people I'm referring too ).

[Thunderball]

Originally Posted by Cowboy89

Yeah it would be a shame if Spray lakes and other areas were ruined due to a few idiots (I think you know exactly which people I'm referring too ).

Oh, I know exactly who you mean... I expect to hear some stories from saturday night about said hillbillies.

But yeah, camping out past Mount Kidd is worth the extra drive if you want to camp for the sake of enjoying nature, just beautiful.

[Tron_fdc]

I used to camp and 4X4 in the Maclean creek area about 10 years ago, and even then it was a no holds barred free for all. One night we had a group of rougenecks show up, try to pick a fight with us, and ended up leaving an engine block in our fire that they had just changed out earlier that day. With the population explosion in Calgary I can't even imagine what it's like now. There are no doubt responsible 4X4 enthusiasts, but with the high amount of people that are frequenting the areas there are going to be more and more idiots who don't give a rats arse what they do, where they go and what kind of crap they leave behind. Unfortunately it's these rejects that are going to ruin it for responsible people like 4X4. After reading about it in the paper this weekend and seeing the photos, I'm betting it gets shut down. Which is sad, because people are going to find somewhere else to go and camp, and attract more idiots to areas that haven't been overrun yet.

[automaton 3]

A group of friends and I have been random camping for years, not in the areas discussed but a little further southwest.

May long is, in my experience the worst every year for this kind of destruction. Sadly, its usually the grad parties that are the worst offenders by far.

We like to quad, the vast majority of bikers and quaders that we ride with and see out there are respectful and stick to the established trails. We are very conscious of our impact and aim to leave the place in the same, or better condition when we leave.

Its a shame that the idiots out there might wreck it for everyone.

[Barnes]

^^Good post Locke. I was at Indian Graves Saturday night. While the area I was at was pretty quiet, all the that went down was up the road. It's embarassing.

I have two Jeep's, a KJ and a ZJ, both stockers but they get me in and out and I had the KJ flexin' pretty good this weekend. I have no problem with OHV areas like Mclean and Waiporous but Indian Graves is different. It's crown land and a very sensitive area. Mclean and Waiporous can be managed and changes to policy will result from what has happened in all three areas in the past few years. It already has at Waiporous. I think if access remains as OHV areas, club membership should be manditory. Be it AURS, Calgary Jeep Association, whatever. If your not a club member and want to "camp" and party out of your Sunfire, areas near the entarnces can be set up and protected by the fish cops and RC's. Stricter enforcement is also required by those groups as well.

The area that most call Indian Graves is infact crown land and borders the Kananaskis boundry north of the hwy. It was PACKED south of the hwy this weekend. Way to many people for that area. Mostly quads and not that many trucks but a lot of damage was done. While I don't quad and 99 percent of people that do are responsible from what I have seen, but that 1 percent does do alot of damage. Same can be said for the campers.

This area is on public land meaning we have access for recreational activities. Because of what happend this weekend, I can forsee the government pushing the southern boundry further south preventing random camping and limiting access. A continuing erosion of public access rights by the Alberta government but this time we can only blame ourselves.

Will this help? I doubt it. You can't legislate stupidity. The area further west up the Hump and south of Hailstone Butte and down to forrestry trunk road would then be at risk of becoming the next party destination. That I do not want to see. It is one of the best areas for random camping and is very sensitive. An area that is well traveled by hunters, fisherman, campers, quaders and oil and gas companies who will not stand for what happened may long.

Those that would like to outright ban certain activities, take a look at the Calgary Jeep and AURS websites and see the work they do. These groups do a lot to manage, protect and unfortunatly clean trail systems and work closely with govenment branches such as SRD to help protect access rights as well as the environment.

Tread Lightly.

[Bobblehead]

More than 20 pick-up truck loads worth of garbage have already been hauled out of the McLean Creek Campground by provincial government workers, and much more is still there, buried under the weekend snow.
Rick Blackwood, with Alberta Sustainable Resource Development, says it will take another two weeks of work to clean up the mess.

Wow
There has to be more than a 1% minority leaving that amount of trash behind.

[troutman]

I think it is very telling what the AOHVA has linked on the Resources page:

http://www.aohva.com/resources.htm

Good news about the environment is the bad news is WRONG ...

Communism and Environmentalists ... what's the difference? It's getting harder to tell! >>

Junk Science
All the junk that's fit to be debunk! >>

This is not the way to win friends and influence people, or show how they are concerned about the environment.

[4X4]

MAn, this sucks... The ATV & 4x4 crowd are taking the heat for garbage and general insanity.
It's the people that show up in their mom's minivan just to get trashed that are the real problem.

[Table 5]

Originally Posted by Bobblehead

There has to be more than a 1% minority leaving that amount of trash behind.

I know that many people like to think this is "a few ruining it for the many" situation, but in this case, I think it's the complete opposite. The people who are actually responsible seem to be the definite minority in a cesspool of degenerates.

[Table 5]

Originally Posted by 4X4

MAn, this sucks... The ATV & 4x4 crowd are taking the heat for garbage and general insanity .

Maybe it's time the ATV and 4x4 crowd take a proactive approach to stop people who are doing this then instead of just sitting back and dishing out excuses.

[Tron_fdc]

I bet that if they put in noise restrictions past 11PM it would solve a lot of problems. No more all night raves, and no more "let's get gooned and drive around in my 2 stroke dune buggy". The responsible crowd only 4x4's during the day anyways, so I don't think you'd see too much opposition.