Israel declares war on Hamas

[Leondros]

Originally Posted by Beninho

I have refuted it several times, provided you articles, highlighted key differences with actual genocides than to the one you are claiming is occurring . You can talk for yourself, explain why this genocide is different from all the rest but still a genocide. Why has the population grown exponentially unlike in other genocides? In Israel and in Gaza and the West Bank? If Israel is committing genocide why do they allow Palestinians in government and on the supreme court? That would be a bit foolish if the goal was to genocide the Palestinians. You really think this is in the same realm as the Holocaust, Rwandan genocide, and Armenian Genocide? Because if you do, you are brainwashed beyond belief, but so is like half of Ireland so not surprising.

Pretty much across the board in actual genocides hundreds of thousands to millions of people are murdered. Even if you take into account every Palestinian live lost due to this conflict since it started in 1948 it still would not hold a candle to the amount of bloodshed that has occurred in ACTUAL genocides. With that there is nothing more I can argue with you about. You are far gone down this rabit hole and deluded beyond reason. Good day.

Can you please point me to where the hell your made of definition of genocide is documented?

Per the Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of the Crime of Genocide:

Any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group, as such: (a) Killing members of the group; (b) Causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group; (c) Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part; (d) Imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group; (e) Forcibly transferring children of the group to another group.

Where is this brightline test you are referring where a population needs go down for genocide to be considered to have transpired?

Does the complete devastation and destruction of the entire Gaza strip not meet the below criteria as it pertains to the Palestinian people of Gaza?

(a) Killing members of the group

(b) Causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group;

(c) Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part

[Beninho]

Originally Posted by Leondros

Can you please point me to where the hell your made of definition of genocide is documented?

Per the Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of the Crime of Genocide:



Where is this brightline test you are referring where a population needs go down for genocide to be considered to have transpired?

Does the complete devastation and destruction of the entire Gaza strip not meet the below criteria as it pertains to the Palestinian people of Gaza?

(a) Killing members of the group

(b) Causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group;

(c) Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part

The definition of Genocide is the deliberate killing of a large number of people from a particular nation or ethnic group with the aim of destroying that nation or group. Less the 1% of people being killed does not constitute as a large number, like I said, the total amount of Palestinians that have been killed since 1948 does not compare to any other genocide as the % of Palestinians killed due to the conflict is significantly lower than any other genocide and that is over a span of 75 years. If you just research the genocide of the Amhara people which has been occurring since the 1990’s in Ethiopia it is pretty easy to spot the difference between an actual genocide that gets zero coverage and this conflict where a genocide is not actually occurring. If Israel is trying to destroy the Palestinians why is 20% of Israeli citizens of Palestinian heritage? Why would Israel offer peace deals multiple times with a people they are intending to destroy? Israel is not committing a genocide, they are fighting a war with Hamas. It’s a war zone, civilians get killed, especially when used as human shields, and it is terrible, there are many other words to describe what is going on, a genocide is not one of them. Israel is not rounding up Palestinians and mass murdering them, which is a characterization of almost every genocide. This is an armed conflict and Gaza is a war zone. Gaza is ruled by Hamas, Hamas attacked on October 7th, hence the war. If Israel was truly genocidal they could have carpet bombed Gaza decades ago, but here they are sending in their soldiers who are facing casualties to limit the amount of civilian deaths. The use of the word genocide to describe what is going on demeans the word, and then it also makes it seem like people who argue against it seem non compassionate. I would like to see the Palestinians have a state in my lifetime, I would like to see Israel be left alone to live in peace as well and understand the only way for that to be possible is for Palestinians to have their own state. I can admit Palestinian towns were ethnically cleansed in 1948 and that the Palestinians have legitimate grievances with Israel. But It still does not make the term genocide applicable to their situation.

[Fuzz]

Maybe instead of arguing about the definition of a word, you can at least admit the indiscriminate killing of innocent Palestinians is bad, and should stop?

[Leondros]

Originally Posted by Beninho

The definition of Genocide is the deliberate killing of a large number of people from a particular nation or ethnic group with the aim of destroying that nation or group. Less the 1% of people being killed does not constitute as a large number, like I said, the total amount of Palestinians that have been killed since 1948 does not compare to any other genocide as the % of Palestinians killed due to the conflict is significantly lower than any other genocide and that is over a span of 75 years. If you just research the genocide of the Amhara people which has been occurring since the 1990’s in Ethiopia it is pretty easy to spot the difference between an actual genocide that gets zero coverage and this conflict where a genocide is not actually occurring. If Israel is trying to destroy the Palestinians why is 20% of Israeli citizens of Palestinian heritage? Why would Israel offer peace deals multiple times with a people they are intending to destroy? Israel is not committing a genocide, they are fighting a war with Hamas. It’s a war zone, civilians get killed, especially when used as human shields, and it is terrible, there are many other words to describe what is going on, a genocide is not one of them. Israel is not rounding up Palestinians and mass murdering them, which is a characterization of almost every genocide. This is an armed conflict and Gaza is a war zone. Gaza is ruled by Hamas, Hamas attacked on October 7th, hence the war. If Israel was truly genocidal they could have carpet bombed Gaza decades ago, but here they are sending in their soldiers who are facing casualties to limit the amount of civilian deaths. The use of the word genocide to describe what is going on demeans the word, and then it also makes it seem like people who argue against it seem non compassionate. I would like to see the Palestinians have a state in my lifetime, I would like to see Israel be left alone to live in peace as well and understand the only way for that to be possible is for Palestinians to have their own state. I can admit Palestinian towns were ethnically cleansed in 1948 and that the Palestinians have legitimate grievances with Israel. But It still does not make the term genocide applicable to their situation.

No, you don't have the authority to make up definitions. This is not how that works.

In the context of the definition signed into law in the 1951 Human Rights Treaty by more than 130 countries, how is what is transpiring in Gaza NOT genocide?

The pretense of war does not absolve a state of conducting genocide. This all started with the opression of the Tutsis in the mid 1960's. In fact, the Rwanda government itself was at war with the the Rwandan Patriotic Front which was made up of Tutsi exiles in the late 80's and early 90's. It wasn't until 1994 that the world classified the killing of the Tutsi's a "genocide".

[CliffFletcher]

Originally Posted by Leondros

Can you please point me to where the hell your made of definition of genocide is documented?

Per the Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of the Crime of Genocide:



Where is this brightline test you are referring where a population needs go down for genocide to be considered to have transpired?

Does the complete devastation and destruction of the entire Gaza strip not meet the below criteria as it pertains to the Palestinian people of Gaza?

(a) Killing members of the group

(b) Causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group;

(c) Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part

Under those criteria, almost every war in the last 50 years has been genocidal.

[Beninho]

Originally Posted by Fuzz

Maybe instead of arguing about the definition of a word, you can at least admit the indiscriminate killing of innocent Palestinians is bad, and should stop?

Your anger is pointed in the wrong direction. Hamas, the ruling terror government of Gaza should not have murdered, raped, and tortured civilians. They should not have murdered children in front of their parents. They should have not have removed literal human fetuses from pregnant women while the mother was alive, killing the fetus and then the mother. They should stop using human shields, stop using refugee camps, hospitals, and UN facilities as command centre's, return the hostages, and surrender and the war against them and the people they pretend to govern would be over.

[Beninho]

Originally Posted by Leondros

No, you don't have the authority to make up definitions. This is not how that works.

In the context of the definition signed into law in the 1951 Human Rights Treaty by more than 130 countries, how is what is transpiring in Gaza NOT genocide?

The pretense of war does not absolve a state of conducting genocide. This all started with the opression of the Tutsis in the mid 1960's. In fact, the Rwanda government itself was at war with the the Rwandan Patriotic Front which was made up of Tutsi exiles in the late 80's and early 90's. It wasn't until 1994 that the world classified the killing of the Tutsi's a "genocide".

That is the literal definition from the Oxford dictionary smarty pants

[Sliver]

Originally Posted by Beninho

Your anger is pointed in the wrong direction. Hamas, the ruling terror government of Gaza should not have murdered, raped, and tortured civilians. They should not have murdered children in front of their parents. They should have not have removed literal human fetuses from pregnant women while the mother was alive, killing the fetus and then the mother. They should stop using human shields, stop using refugee camps, hospitals, and UN facilities as command centre's, return the hostages, and surrender and the war against them and the people they pretend to govern would be over.

By this logic shouldn't Israel stop murdering and torturing people in Gaza, though?

[blankall]

Originally Posted by Sliver

Wouldn't that be because the state of Israel was created for Jewish people and not because Arab countries are "trying to genocide" Jews?

The governments and people of the Arab nations made life unbearable for the Jews there. They murdered many in pogroms. Places like Libya took it a step further and confiscated all Jewish property. They quickly realized this was a huge mistake, as it led to hundreds of thousands of Jews moving to Israel:

By the time Colonel Muammar Gaddafi came to power in 1969, roughly 100 Jews remained in Libya. Under his rule, all Jewish property was confiscated, and all debts to Jews were cancelled. In 1970, the Libyan government declared the Day of Revenge, which celebrated the expulsion of Jews and Italians from Libya, a national holiday. Despite emigration being prohibited, most of the remaining Jews succeeded in escaping the country and by 1974, only 20 Jews remained in Libya.[13]

In 2002, the last known Jew in Libya, Esmeralda Meghnagi, died. In the same year, however, it was discovered that Rina Debach, a then 80-year-old Jewish woman who was born and raised in Tripoli but thought to be dead by her family in Rome, was still living in a nursing home in the country. With her ensuing departure for Rome, there were no more Jews in the country.[16][17]

In 2004, Gaddafi indicated that the Libyan government would compensate Jews who were forced to leave the country and stripped of their possessions. In October of that year he met with representatives of Jewish organizations to discuss compensation. He did, however, insist that Jews who moved to Israel would not be compensated.[18] Some suspected these moves were motivated by his son Saif al-Islam Gaddafi, who was considered to be the likely successor of his father. In the same year, Saif had invited Libyan Jews living in Israel back to Libya, saying that they are Libyans, and that they should "leave the land they took from the Palestinians."[19]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Histor..._Jews_in_Libya

[Sliver]

Originally Posted by blankall

The governments and people of the Arab nations made life unbearable for the Jews there. They murdered many in pogroms. Places like Libya took it a step further and confiscated all Jewish property. They quickly realized this was a huge mistake, as it led to hundreds of thousands of Jews moving to Israel:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Histor..._Jews_in_Libya

Okay, so didn't you just prove my point? The Jews moved to Israel. Beninho said the population of Jews in Arab countries dropped 99% since 1948 because of genocide.

Also, if Arab nations are bad actors for making life unbearable for Jews decades ago, isn't Israel a bad actor currently for making life miserable for Palestinians literally today, which seems to be the more pressing problem than stuff that happened before most Palestinians were even born?

And if confiscating Jewish property is bad (it is), then isn't it also bad the Israelis keep stealing land and property from non-Jews (again, today...not years ago)?

[Cycling76er]

Originally Posted by Fuzz

Maybe instead of arguing about the definition of a word, you can at least admit the indiscriminate killing of innocent Palestinians is bad, and should stop?

bUt how can we aDMit t0 that which we can't even deFIne? Sheesh.

Maybe when it's all said and done, then will Benhino say "oh sh1t! loloolol. It WAS a genocide".

[FlamesAddiction]

Originally Posted by Sliver

Wouldn't that be because the state of Israel was created for Jewish people and not because Arab countries are "trying to genocide" Jews?

There were definitely push factors in the Middle East and North Africa to remove Jews. In Egypt for example, most Jews even if their family was there for many generations, could not get citizenship and therefore could not work in a lot fields. Jews in Algeria were targeted with violence and pushed out that way, most of whom actually settled in France.

You can go through it case-by-case, but I doubt too many people leave their home for generations just because.

[Beninho]

Originally Posted by Sliver

By this logic shouldn't Israel stop murdering and torturing people in Gaza, though?

Because they were attacked, hence the response to remove an enemy that uses their own population as sacrificial ponds. Israel is attacking Hamas, targeting Hamas and civilians are suffering because of Hamas. This is a proportional military response to a disproportionately barbaric attack. Hamas and peace do not belong in the same sentence, a ceasefire brings no future peace. Israel removed itself from Gaza in 2005, billions of dollars have been poured into Gaza just for it to use the money to create terror systems throughout the entire strip. You too should want Hamas to be eradicated and Gaza to be demilitarized if you want to see peace. If you want a ceasefire you are fine with Gaza continuing to be used as a pariah terror state for Iran.

[Fuzz]

Originally Posted by Beninho

Your anger is pointed in the wrong direction. Hamas, the ruling terror government of Gaza should not have murdered, raped, and tortured civilians. They should not have murdered children in front of their parents. They should have not have removed literal human fetuses from pregnant women while the mother was alive, killing the fetus and then the mother. They should stop using human shields, stop using refugee camps, hospitals, and UN facilities as command centre's, return the hostages, and surrender and the war against them and the people they pretend to govern would be over.

I'm not angry. And ya, I agree with everything you posted. Do you agree Israel should stop murdering innocent Palestinians?

[Leondros]

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

Under those criteria, almost every war in the last 50 years has been genocidal.

Don't blame me man, I don't make up definitions, its not my job...

[Zevo]

Originally Posted by Sliver

By this logic shouldn't Israel stop murdering and torturing people in Gaza, though?

If that’s what they were doing then absolutely but since that’s not happening…

[Zevo]

Originally Posted by Fuzz

I'm not angry. And ya, I agree with everything you posted. Do you agree Israel should stop murdering innocent Palestinians?

They’re not murdering innocent Palestinians. Doesn’t mean they shouldn’t try to limit casualties in the war they’re in though.

[Beninho]

Originally Posted by Fuzz

I'm not angry. And ya, I agree with everything you posted. Do you agree Israel should stop murdering innocent Palestinians?

That is where we obviously differ, I view Hamas as the group culpable for the deaths of civilians. Israel is not targeting civilians but targeting Hamas, which becomes increasingly difficult when they are embedded within population centre’s, use human shields, and do not wear military uniforms. It is a horrible aspect of this war, but I don’t see how you rid Hamas without harming civilians. Can Israel do more to protect civilians? Possibly, but Hamas makes it incredibly difficult.

But if you are asking me if I am against civilians dying of course I am. I just view Hamas responsible for their deaths, you view it as Israel.

[Sliver]

Originally Posted by Zevo

If that’s what they were doing then absolutely but since that’s not happening…

Is it your position that Israelis are not currently murdering Palestinians?

[Sliver]

Originally Posted by Beninho

That is where we obviously differ, I view Hamas as the group culpable for the deaths of civilians. Israel is not targeting civilians but targeting Hamas, which becomes increasingly difficult when they are embedded within population centre’s, use human shields, and do not wear military uniforms. It is a horrible aspect of this war, but I don’t see how you rid Hamas without harming civilians. Can Israel do more to protect civilians? Possibly, but Hamas makes it incredibly difficult.

But if you are asking me if I am against civilians dying of course I am. I just view Hamas responsible for their deaths, you view it as Israel.

Hamas controls the Israeli military?! Holy crap, things are crazier there than I thought.