Israel declares war on Hamas

[PepsiFree]

Originally Posted by Zevo

You're being absurd and arguing in bad faith by misrepresenting what I said. I never said Israel shouldn't agree to one, I said Hamas needs to release the hostages first and stop firing missiles.

And obviously I didn't single you out for any other reason than I was replying to you. Seemed obvious enough that I shouldn't have to clarify that but here we are.

You can reply if you like but I said my piece and am out for now.

No, what is absurd is the level of double speak you’re using.

“Why should Israel agree to a ceasefire.”
“Hamas needs to release the hostages first and stop firing missiles.”

“I never said Israel shouldn’t agree to one.”

Except, you know, exactly where you say they shouldn’t.

And of course you have to clarify why you single someone out as someone who demanded a ceasefire when they didn’t demand a ceasefire. Why would that come as an even slight surprise?

Originally Posted by Beninho

A ceasefire now would save Hamas in the face of an imminent total defeat. No other country would agree to a ceasefire under the present conditions, Israel has essentially got Hamas on deaths door but the world wants to give Hamas a lifeline. Fighting would stop if Hamas releases the hostages and surrenders. If Israel lets Hamas live the potential for a two front war with Hezbollah/Iran in the future remains. IDF has Hamas pinned in the North and will do the same in the South, there is zero benefit for Israel to have a ceasefire. Maybe if Hamas was posing a hardened resistance, but they are not. Hamas has two choices, surrender and allow a new chapter for the Palestinians in Gaza to begin or fight till the last terrorist standing. It’s that simple.

If you truly want peace I don’t understand why you also would want to allow Hamas to survive. There is no future for Palestinians with Hamas at the negotiating table. Only more war and more deaths.

Saying “the fighting would stop if one side surrenders” is kind of meaningless. That’s how fighting works.

[afc wimbledon]

Originally Posted by PepsiFree

No, what is absurd is the level of double speak you’re using.

“Why should Israel agree to a ceasefire.”
“Hamas needs to release the hostages first and stop firing missiles.”

“I never said Israel shouldn’t agree to one.”

Except, you know, exactly where you say they shouldn’t.

And of course you have to clarify why you single someone out as someone who demanded a ceasefire when they didn’t demand a ceasefire. Why would that come as an even slight surprise?



Saying “the fighting would stop if one side surrenders” is kind of meaningless. That’s how fighting works.

If we all agree on this point then why are we arguing about a ceasefire? the ceasefire will come, as in most wars, when one side loses

[activeStick]

Hamas won't be defeated by these methods because Israel actually creates new fighters by destroying innocent families both in their homes and anywhere else in Gaza. The path to eliminating Hamas and other similar groups is for Israel to support initiatives in Palestine to lift the people up, through education and basic needs like water, food and homes. It's worth doing for Israel for obvious reasons given they're constantly under attack from Hamas and other groups. Cutting the region off from water and food and taking over homes in the West Bank, not to mention carpet bombing whatever in that region shrugging off innocent deaths as being the cost of war is only creating more joiners to Hamas and others.

[Doctorfever]

Originally Posted by activeStick

Hamas won't be defeated by these methods because Israel actually creates new fighters by destroying innocent families both in their homes and anywhere else in Gaza. The path to eliminating Hamas and other similar groups is for Israel to support initiatives in Palestine to lift the people up, through education and basic needs like water, food and homes. It's worth doing for Israel for obvious reasons given they're constantly under attack from Hamas and other groups. Cutting the region off from water and food and taking over homes in the West Bank, not to mention carpet bombing whatever in that region shrugging off innocent deaths as being the cost of war is only creating more joiners to Hamas and others.

I don’t disagree with your point. They are in a war now, if / when Hamas is defeated, that would be the time to “lift” the Palestinian people up.

I do wonder if it would make a difference though. The hatred between these groups runs so deep I don’t know that there will ever be peace in that region.

[afc wimbledon]

Originally Posted by activeStick

Hamas won't be defeated by these methods because Israel actually creates new fighters by destroying innocent families both in their homes and anywhere else in Gaza. The path to eliminating Hamas and other similar groups is for Israel to support initiatives in Palestine to lift the people up, through education and basic needs like water, food and homes. It's worth doing for Israel for obvious reasons given they're constantly under attack from Hamas and other groups. Cutting the region off from water and food and taking over homes in the West Bank, not to mention carpet bombing whatever in that region shrugging off innocent deaths as being the cost of war is only creating more joiners to Hamas and others.

I spent most of my life thinking this but I have become more grim and unconvinced in the last decade or so, Israel is tiny, about the size of southern Vancouver Island, there isnt enough land to share that will satisfy Palestinian hopes or needs let alone also allow Israel any kind of security.

Nor would it allow a 'free' Palestine to have any kind of economy, essentially all this creates are slightly larger Gaza's, poverty stricken over populated open air prisons, young Palestinian boys and men will always look over the border into a rich modern Israel with tens of times their GDP per capita and will always believe (and be taught) that Israel stole their wealth, their hopes and dreams.
Israel and the west are and have always been convenient scapegoats for Arab regimes to avoid answering for their own incompetence, Israel will always be a scapegoat for Palestinian leaders and so young Arab men will always be led into violence.

It's rubbish of course, Arab countries are terribly led, corrupt and poverty stricken because of Islam and it's quasi legal/religious grip on them in many ways similar to profoundly Catholic countries economic problems.

Because of this it probably makes no difference what Israel does and their best course of action, if not pleasant or moral, may be to utterly and brutely beat Gaza into submission, to make life so bad for Palestinians they just leave slowly but surely due to lack of hope or future, the vast majority of Palestinians have left over the last 60 years and are Jordan, Lebanon the US, Canada and the west, they aren't attacking Israel and have better lives themselves, have moved on, that might be best for all sides as depressing as it seems

[afc wimbledon]

The GDP per capita for Egypt and Jordan are around 4000 US a year, Israel's is 54,000, this level of massive inequality is not likely to ever allow for peace, ironically Gaza has a GDP of 6000, you are better off in Gaza than in 'free' Egypt

[Snuffleupagus]

Originally Posted by afc wimbledon

The GDP per capita for Egypt and Jordan are around 4000 US a year, Israel's is 54,000, this level of massive inequality is not likely to ever allow for peace, ironically Gaza has a GDP of 6000, you are better off in Gaza than in 'free' Egypt

That's probably just the massive disparity between regular folks and the corrupt Hamas.

[Bagor]

Originally Posted by afc wimbledon

Because of this it probably makes no difference what Israel does and their best course of action, if not pleasant or moral, may be to utterly and brutely beat Gaza into submission, to make life so bad for Palestinians they just leave slowly but surely due to lack of hope or future, the vast majority of Palestinians have left over the last 60 years and are Jordan, Lebanon the US, Canada and the west, they aren't attacking Israel and have better lives themselves, have moved on, that might be best for all sides as depressing as it seems

Spoken like a true Englishman that knows what's best for others. The arrogance. Keep on with the map drawing.

Let's just bomb the crap out of them, slaughter their children and make refugees out of them so they'll move on and have better lives.

To hell or Connaught.

[Bill Bumface]

Originally Posted by Manhattanboy

https://www.euronews.com/2023/12/08/...ing-jews-again

“We, whose people were decimated in the Holocaust, and who watched as our people were butchered and dragged off to hell, look to the ICRC to do the right thing. In our eyes, this might be your last chance, Robert Singer writes.”

Two comments on the Red Cross that made me chuckle:
- the Red Cross is like that member of a group project that contributes nothing but rushes to the podium to deliver the presentation
- the only thing the Red Cross has done is act as Uber for the freed hostages.

The Conservative bashing, discrediting and even vilifying of things like the Red Cross and Doctors Without Borders is fascinating/terrifying to me.

No big organization is perfect, but the people on the front lines here are risking themselves to help others, and the world needs a hell of a lot more of that, not less.

The article states the Red Cross isn't trying to do anything to help the hostages, but that's just plainly not true. They aren't a combat unit. Not much they can do if the terrorists won't give them access:

https://www.timesofisrael.com/red-cr...d-in-gaza/amp/

Red Cross demands Hamas grant immediate access to hostages held in Gaza

Organization says it has been in touch with Israeli officials since the day of the attack, is ready to facilitate release of the kidnapped, estimated at over 150

“We are speaking with Hamas at the highest levels, face-to-face,” said Sarah Davies of ICRC Israel and the Occupied Territories. “The plight of loved ones being held hostage is one of our top priorities. We are making demands to see them. We are asking that they be able to contact family members.”


“We are calling for immediate access to those taken hostage, so we can check on their well-being and contact their panicked families who are desperate for news,” she said.

[PepsiFree]

Originally Posted by Bill Bumface

The Conservative bashing, discrediting and even vilifying of things like the Red Cross and Doctors Without Borders is fascinating/terrifying to me.

No big organization is perfect, but the people on the front lines here are risking themselves to help others, and the world needs a hell of a lot more of that, not less.

The article states the Red Cross isn't trying to do anything to help the hostages, but that's just plainly not true. They aren't a combat unit. Not much they can do if the terrorists won't give them access:

https://www.timesofisrael.com/red-cr...d-in-gaza/amp/

It’s kind of disturbing. Any organization at the scale of some of these agencies are going to have examples of issues or points of criticism, but the complete discrediting and borderline demonization of humanitarian and human rights groups like the Red Cross, Amnesty International, HRW, Doctors Without Borders, and the UN (WHO, UNICEF, UNRWA, etc) is insane to me.

It seems like it really ramped up during COVID as people tied that to their political identity but it’s concerning to see it hasn’t subsided.

[activeStick]

I agree that this has ramped up during Covid and for many people, it's tied to their political identity, but for many it's as simple as which side they're on. If the same organizations investigate another country based on accusations or if the Red Cross is doing work in another country or region that is not aligned to the west (like how Israel is) or is a relative unknown that is not aligned with anyone, some people will flip and suddenly, it's how these organizations' investigations "found this", etc. But they won't hesitate to call these international humanitarian organizations out when they start criticizing their side.

[Beninho]

Originally Posted by PepsiFree

It’s kind of disturbing. Any organization at the scale of some of these agencies are going to have examples of issues or points of criticism, but the complete discrediting and borderline demonization of humanitarian and human rights groups like the Red Cross, Amnesty International, HRW, Doctors Without Borders, and the UN (WHO, UNICEF, UNRWA, etc) is insane to me.

It seems like it really ramped up during COVID as people tied that to their political identity but it’s concerning to see it hasn’t subsided.

Hahaha ya UNWRA is basically an arm of Hamas at this point. How many more weapons and anti-semitic manifestos need to be found in their facilities? Your posts get better and better

https://unwatch.org/un-teachers-call...ls-new-report/

It’s a pro-peace organization tho

[PepsiFree]

Originally Posted by Beninho

Hahaha ya UNWRA is basically an arm of Hamas at this point. How many more weapons and anti-semitic manifestos need to be found in their facilities? Your posts get better and better

https://unwatch.org/un-teachers-call...ls-new-report/

It’s a pro-peace organization tho

I’m not sure why you have to be such an ####### every time you post. The fact that UNRWA employs and lacks discipline against some teachers with awful viewpoints that they share with students is a completely valid criticism.

That said, the UN Watch is a pro-Israeli org with a heavy right-wing bias and plenty of criticisms worthy of consideration, including lobbying to remove any critics of Israel, sharing close alignment with the Likud party, and using manipulative/loaded language in their reports and videos. So, if anything, it’s further evidence of the right’s persistent attack on these organizations.

[afc wimbledon]

Originally Posted by Snuffleupagus

That's probably just the massive disparity between regular folks and the corrupt Hamas.

While true corruption and economic disparity is regionally endemic, I will be honest I was surprised though that Gaza is 'richer' than Jordan, it speaks to how poor the region is generally

[activeStick]

Originally Posted by PepsiFree

I’m not sure why you have to be such an ####### every time you post. The fact that UNRWA employs and lacks discipline against some teachers with awful viewpoints that they share with students is a completely valid criticism.



That said, the UN Watch is a pro-Israeli org with a heavy right-wing bias and plenty of criticisms worthy of consideration, including lobbying to remove any critics of Israel, sharing close alignment with the Likud party, and using manipulative/loaded language in their reports and videos. So, if anything, it’s further evidence of the right’s persistent attack on these organizations.

He can't help it. He's been banned from his posts in this thread now, what, 3 times?

[Beninho]

Originally Posted by PepsiFree

I’m not sure why you have to be such an ####### every time you post. The fact that UNRWA employs and lacks discipline against some teachers with awful viewpoints that they share with students is a completely valid criticism.

That said, the UN Watch is a pro-Israeli org with a heavy right-wing bias and plenty of criticisms worthy of consideration, including lobbying to remove any critics of Israel, sharing close alignment with the Likud party, and using manipulative/loaded language in their reports and videos. So, if anything, it’s further evidence of the right’s persistent attack on these organizations.

You probably think the weapons found in UNRWA facilities is an israeli conspiracy, we already have people in this thread who believe Israel builds Hamas tunnels under hospitals for them. Posters in here freak out over “sources” but same posters link a video from a Hamas funded news agency. Typical.

[Pointman]

Originally Posted by activeStick

Hamas won't be defeated by these methods because Israel actually creates new fighters by destroying innocent families both in their homes and anywhere else in Gaza. The path to eliminating Hamas and other similar groups is for Israel to support initiatives in Palestine to lift the people up, through education and basic needs like water, food and homes. It's worth doing for Israel for obvious reasons given they're constantly under attack from Hamas and other groups. Cutting the region off from water and food and taking over homes in the West Bank, not to mention carpet bombing whatever in that region shrugging off innocent deaths as being the cost of war is only creating more joiners to Hamas and others.

It is perfectly possible to subdue terrorist groups or even peoples for that matter. Chechnya is a good example of that. It was carpet bombed into surrender and has been perfectly loyal ever since. ISIS was subdued. Massive war against ISIS did NOT create thousands of new terrorists. Nuking Japan did not create generations of Japanese looking for revenge on USA. Contrary, it created generations of peaceful, harmless Japanese. Carpet bombing Germany did not create generations of Germans wanting to join Nazi. Contrary, it created generations of Germans who hate Nazis and don't want to repeat their mistakes again. As history shows us on those examples, destroying Hamas will create generations of Palestinians who are looking to live on peace. That's human nature. When people are well beaten, they give up.

[blankall]

Leaving Hamas in power will create a generation of militants who want to destroy Israel. Hamas is literally receiving billions of dollars from Iran to set up educational and religious systems where they train children to become militants. Removing Hamas cannot be accomplished by winning the people of Gaza over. It would require the people of Gaza to, after being won over, engage in a full scale civil war against Hamas, who has all the weapons, money, and power.

[PepsiFree]

Originally Posted by Beninho

You probably think the weapons found in UNRWA facilities is an israeli conspiracy, we already have people in this thread who believe Israel builds Hamas tunnels under hospitals for them. Posters in here freak out over “sources” but same posters link a video from a Hamas funded news agency. Typical.

I would believe that… why? Because I said the last negative point you brought up about the UNRWA was valid criticism? As much as you want to do it to cover for your own biased, misinformed and hate-rich worldview, you can’t just make up things you think other people might believe and pass it off as having a point to make. Nor can you lie about what sources someone has shared to cover for your own lack of media literacy.

Though, if we’re talking about what’s “typical,” I suppose it is from you. Maybe you need another break.

[Bagor]

Latest Genocide figures. 23k dead. 9000 children slaughtered.

Latest strategy. Kill them by starvation, disease and lack of access to medical help.

https://twitter.com/user/status/1733198025437114786