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Old 12-10-2023, 09:40 PM   #12961
CliffFletcher
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Originally Posted by Tkachukwagon View Post
Weird development curve. From 15 goals in 67 games as a rookie last year to a scratch in the AHL this year.
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If this day gets you riled up, you obviously aren't numb to the disappointment yet to be a real fan.
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Old 12-10-2023, 10:09 PM   #12962
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Weird development curve. From 15 goals in 67 games as a rookie last year to a scratch in the AHL this year.
One of those guys that is only good and offense but isn’t good enough at that one thing. So he gets passed by other prospects and signings
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Old 12-10-2023, 10:21 PM   #12963
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It still blows me away to this day that Treliving paid a first and two seconds for Travis Hamonic. Looking at most trades in the last few years it is absolute lunacy.
Treliving falls in love with odd players.
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Old 12-10-2023, 10:28 PM   #12964
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Other teams? He had clearly stated he was going to western Canada or nothing.

edit: It looks like Calgary, Edmonton, Vnacouver or Winnipeg. How many teams put in a bid and what we're the other bids in your recollection?
you would argue me if I said the sky was blue lol
Leafs were said to have the exact same offer on the table for him but the Islanders thought the Flames picks would likely be better

do a two second google search there are plenty of articles saying "the sweepstakes is down to Leafs and Flames"

He was known as a very good dman on a great contract at the time...I'm not suggesting it turned out to be a good move but he was heavily sought after at the time. Market for dman goes crazy at times...especially a top 4 with term on a contract under 4M. Facy stats guys loved him and fancy stats were the new thing.

https://theathletic.com/70660/2017/0...o-without-him/

"But the Leafs didn’t get him. They were, according to multiple sources, excruciatingly close. My sense is they came away from the draft in Chicago disappointed to not get that one vital piece in place."
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Old 12-10-2023, 10:49 PM   #12965
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It still blows me away to this day that Treliving paid a first and two seconds for Travis Hamonic. Looking at most trades in the last few years it is absolute lunacy.
Worst part is that pick was used to select Dobson. Just a ridiculous trade for a team that should have been in the middle of a rebuild, not at the end.
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Old 12-10-2023, 10:56 PM   #12966
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Worst part is that pick was used to select Dobson. Just a ridiculous trade for a team that should have been in the middle of a rebuild, not at the end.
The worst part is that we traded it. You’d feel better if New York picked a bust and someone else got Dobson? How would that help us?
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Old 12-11-2023, 05:54 AM   #12967
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you would argue me if I said the sky was blue lol
Leafs were said to have the exact same offer on the table for him but the Islanders thought the Flames picks would likely be better

do a two second google search there are plenty of articles saying "the sweepstakes is down to Leafs and Flames"

He was known as a very good dman on a great contract at the time...I'm not suggesting it turned out to be a good move but he was heavily sought after at the time. Market for dman goes crazy at times...especially a top 4 with term on a contract under 4M. Facy stats guys loved him and fancy stats were the new thing.

https://theathletic.com/70660/2017/0...o-without-him/

"But the Leafs didn’t get him. They were, according to multiple sources, excruciatingly close. My sense is they came away from the draft in Chicago disappointed to not get that one vital piece in place."
He was available for a long time even with a trade request
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Old 12-11-2023, 07:05 AM   #12968
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He was available for a long time even with a trade request
…….so?

The Islanders had a price and were patient. They did a good job in this instance.

The rumor I had heard was the Leafs offered JVR, who at the time was headed into his UFA season, and a first. The Islanders actually preferred the Leafs package but there was a hang up with JVR using some trade protection or him not being available to waive his NTC.

The price was steep and the deal was bad in retrospect for all the reasons we’ve been rehashing for 6-7 years or so. But Treliving’s intentions weren’t misguided nor was the price he paid out of line.

What I find most erroneous is people like to draw a direct line to Noah Dobson. The Flames didn’t trade Noah Dobson, they traded a first round pick. Bear in mind also that the Islanders didn’t want to trade Hamonic, they did so to respect Hamonic’s personal decision. Also, Snow said after the deal he didn’t want a future’s based package and he intended to use the picks to back fill the void Hamonic left.

Lastly, as evidenced by the trade itself, the Flames were intent on improving. They moved those picks with purpose. If it wasn’t Hamonic, then it likely would have been someone else. And in some other alternate universe, who knows how things end up.

I just find it funny that many people who criticize the Flames the most for this deal, or that deal, also criticize the Flames for not making enough deals…..
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Old 12-11-2023, 07:25 AM   #12969
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I find it funny people are still defending the wizard

And of all trades, they have to defend the Hamonic’s deal. The wizard didn’t do his homework. The guy was already down hill before the trade.
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Old 12-11-2023, 07:29 AM   #12970
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Hamonic was weird because he was a really solid defenseman, and very highly regarded. The Tanev comparison is a good one - a defensive defenseman who was a warrior and a good team guy. I was very pleased when we acquired him.

Then he came to Calgary and it was like all his mojo was just sucked out of him.

It was just another manifestation of the Flames' curse.
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Old 12-11-2023, 07:35 AM   #12971
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Man the "wizard" is almost becoming "what a Flames thing to do" for me.

Put it to rest.
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Old 12-11-2023, 07:57 AM   #12972
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Originally Posted by Flamesfan05 View Post
I find it funny people are still defending the wizard

And of all trades, they have to defend the Hamonic’s deal. The wizard didn’t do his homework. The guy was already down hill before the trade.
Two possibilities:

A) The management and scouts of the Flames, Leafs, Jets, and other teams that bid on Hamonic (so 15 or so experienced hockey people) - all failed to do their homework.

B) Hamonic’s play declined much faster than many experts anticipated.

I’m gonna to with B.

You can question whether the Flames should have been spending high draft capital on a 2nd pairing d-man. But the price they paid for Hamonic was his market value at the time.
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Old 12-11-2023, 08:12 AM   #12973
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Didn’t know where to put this:

https://twitter.com/user/status/1734021294310523369

LTIR is being abused and has been for years.
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Old 12-11-2023, 08:24 AM   #12974
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Originally Posted by CliffFletcher View Post
Two possibilities:

A) The management and scouts of the Flames, Leafs, Jets, and other teams that bid on Hamonic (so 15 or so experienced hockey people) - all failed to do their homework.

B) Hamonic’s play declined much faster than many experts anticipated.

I’m gonna to with B.

You can question whether the Flames should have been spending high draft capital on a 2nd pairing d-man. But the price they paid for Hamonic was his market value at the time.
Hamonic was a mediocre defenseman playing a lot of minutes on a bad Islanders team. His play was declining season over season with the Islanders with his worst season being the one where the Flames traded for him. Cleary a lot of pro scouts (Flames and Leafs) didn't do a very good job scouting him as it seems like they were counting on a bounce back on a different team which is fine but not at the steep cost the Flame ultimately paid. The Flames had the GM that was willing to sacrifice more and that's why the Flames came out big losers that fateful day.
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Old 12-11-2023, 08:26 AM   #12975
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Originally Posted by TrentCrimmIndependent View Post
Treliving falls in love with odd players.
Agree. Seems if you hold out long enough he just keeps upping his price. Monahan is another with the oddly favourable and convoluted conditions.

Not out of this world if Conroy plays right to see Tanev eventually going for a ransom because of this.
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Old 12-11-2023, 08:27 AM   #12976
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Treliving had last say on player movement and given that he was after Hamonic for several seasons prior to actually obtaining him, likely made the call on his own regardless of the input given him.

I'd imagine that happened on several occasions. Can't see someone like Chris Snow advocating for James Neal and yet that signing happened.
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Old 12-11-2023, 08:29 AM   #12977
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Originally Posted by TrentCrimmIndependent View Post
Treliving falls in love with odd players.
Right handed defenseman that are either big, defensive, or can eat minutes are his MO.

Engelland
Hamilton
Hamonic
Tanev

And the Risto rumors. Maybe a couple I've left out but there seems to be a common theme.
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Old 12-11-2023, 08:30 AM   #12978
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Hamonic was on a very cost controlled contract which added value to him too.
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Old 12-11-2023, 08:40 AM   #12979
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Originally Posted by Erick Estrada View Post
Hamonic was a mediocre defenseman playing a lot of minutes on a bad Islanders team. His play was declining season over season with the Islanders with his worst season being the one where the Flames traded for him. Cleary a lot of pro scouts (Flames and Leafs) didn't do a very good job scouting him as it seems like they were counting on a bounce back on a different team which is fine but not at the steep cost the Flame ultimately paid. The Flames had the GM that was willing to sacrifice more and that's why the Flames came out big losers that fateful day.
This is true. Which is why his steep "decline" should have been predictable - it had already happened.

It's possible for several teams to have bad scouting. If 3 out of 31 teams have bad judgment, it doesn't make it excusable.
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Old 12-11-2023, 08:42 AM   #12980
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Originally Posted by CliffFletcher View Post
Two possibilities:

A) The management and scouts of the Flames, Leafs, Jets, and other teams that bid on Hamonic (so 15 or so experienced hockey people) - all failed to do their homework.

B) Hamonic’s play declined much faster than many experts anticipated.

I’m gonna to with B.

You can question whether the Flames should have been spending high draft capital on a 2nd pairing d-man. But the price they paid for Hamonic was his market value at the time.
It appears the other teams were not prepared to pay what Treliving did. Without details on this, it's hard to know if he offered a lot more or a little more. The evidence we do have points to the Flames placing more value on this player than these other 15 hockey people.
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