Tracking the anti-LBGTQ+ movement

[rubecube]

Originally Posted by Jason14h

Has there been an increases in hostility and violence? I've never seen stats showing this in Canada.

Why wouldn't you just Google this stuff when it's readily available?

https://www.theglobeandmail.com/poli...ted-to-police/

The Statistics Canada hate crimes report notes that in 2021 there was a 64-per-cent rise in crimes against members of the LGBTQ community and a 67-per-cent increase in incidents linked to a person’s religion.

[Jason14h]

Originally Posted by rubecube

Why wouldn't you just Google this stuff when it's readily available?

https://www.theglobeandmail.com/poli...ted-to-police/

But you know that there is a statistical flaw in this - Its even spelled out in the article (did you read the whole thing?)

“Most people do not report hate crimes to the police mainly because they don’t have faith that anything will come of it,” he said, adding the statistics for 2022 are likely to show an even greater increase.

So an increase in REPORTED hate crimes also can mean (does mean) more people are comfortable REPORTING them - This comes as people have faith that the system will actually do something about it.

It doesnt mean there are more hate crimes towards these groups then in the past. Just more being reported.

Do you honestly believe that things are worse for these groups today then in the past?

EDIT: One other statistical point - As more and more people are comfortable to come out as LBGTQ+ more crimes will be classified as hate crimes against these people that in the past wouldn't have. Maybe violence by this small group of hate criminals is is increasing - The article does say almost all the hate crimes are repeat offenders - And yes 100% these people should be prosecuted to the fullest extend on the law.

But small group of criminal outliers doesn't mean Canada is turning into Russia (Or Uganda)

[TheIronMaiden]

Originally Posted by rubecube

Why wouldn't you just Google this stuff when it's readily available?

https://www.theglobeandmail.com/poli...ted-to-police/

While I agree that this is troubling. there has been a change in the legal system to better define hate speech. These statistics might reflect the status quo (ie better identifying what a hate crime is) more than indicating a statistic increase of this crime.

https://www.justice.gc.ca/eng/csj-sj...dch/index.html

Just to tread gently here, what Fuzz said was right, better doesn't mean good, and these underlying numbers are something that needs a solution.

[CliffFletcher]

Originally Posted by rubecube

First and foremost, I think we need to acknowledge that the attitudes towards these people contributes to unique disadvantages faced by them. As such, there may be a need for programs and special accommodations afforded to them to mitigate the disadvantages they face.

Like what?

[rubecube]

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

Like what?

What disadvantages or what accommodations should be provided?

[PepsiFree]

Originally Posted by Jason14h

Has there been an increases in hostility and violence? I've never seen stats showing this in Canada.

Police reported hate crimes have more than doubled over the past five years.

https://www150.statcan.gc.ca/t1/tbl1...pid=3510006601

Originally Posted by Jason14h

I dont think people are sticking their heads in the sand either - But in a country of 40 million people, there is only so much outrage someone can have before they get tired (Unless you sit on social media all day looking for things to be outraged over).

Things are getting better for these groups by the day. It doesn't mean that terrible things worldwide don't still happen, but for almost everyone in the LGBT community life is exponentially better today then anytime in the past.

This is part of the point. Your experience with these issues is almost exclusively online. So, for you, the level of reaction is equal to the amount of time someone dedicates to these things online. In real life, the real people that are actually experiencing these things do not have the privilege of simply ignoring it because they got “tired.”

That said, it doesn’t take personal experience to see that things are actually getting worse and the hateful ideas that “have always been around” are gaining more traction, both locally and abroad.

“Things are getting better by the day” is a harmless nicety, and comforts probably nobody outside of those who want to believe that’s reason enough not to dedicate any time or effort to it. It’s not nearly enough to look back over 50 years and say “gee golly, what progress we’ve made!” because, as evidenced by this thread, that progress is either enough or too much for some people, and even those who are impressed by the progress would rather remind people to be happy about it than actually put in any effort to listen to the concerns about what’s happening now and what the future looks like if good people don’t stay on top of these issues, let alone actually doing something about it themselves.

This isn’t directed at you, but it’s actually one of the biggest problems I have with people turning this into a “two sides” issues with “room in the middle.” I’m sorry, but you either believe LGBTQ people should be able to live their lives just the same as anyone else without discrimination, or you don’t. And I think most people do, so you (again not “you,” but the general “you”) are not “in the middle” or whatever, we’re all on the same side. The only other “side” is people who want to ensure other people stay lesser than.

[TheIronMaiden]

Originally Posted by PepsiFree

Police reported hate crimes have more than doubled over the past five years.

https://www150.statcan.gc.ca/t1/tbl1...pid=3510006601



This is part of the point. Your experience with these issues is almost exclusively online. So, for you, the level of reaction is equal to the amount of time someone dedicates to these things online. In real life, the real people that are actually experiencing these things do not have the privilege of simply ignoring it because they got “tired.”

That said, it doesn’t take personal experience to see that things are actually getting worse and the hateful ideas that “have always been around” are gaining more traction, both locally and abroad.

“Things are getting better by the day” is a harmless nicety, and comforts probably nobody outside of those who want to believe that’s reason enough not to dedicate any time or effort to it. It’s not nearly enough to look back over 50 years and say “gee golly, what progress we’ve made!” because, as evidenced by this thread, that progress is either enough or too much for some people, and even those who are impressed by the progress would rather remind people to be happy about it than actually put in any effort to listen to the concerns about what’s happening now and what the future looks like if good people don’t stay on top of these issues, let alone actually doing something about it themselves.

This isn’t directed at you, but it’s actually one of the biggest problems I have with people turning this into a “two sides” issues with “room in the middle.” I’m sorry, but you either believe LGBTQ people should be able to live their lives just the same as anyone else without discrimination, or you don’t. And I think most people do, so you (again not “you,” but the general “you”) are not “in the middle” or whatever, we’re all on the same side. The only other “side” is people who want to ensure other people stay lesser than.

The statistical bump in 2021 reflects changes to law surrounding how hate speech is defined. https://www.justice.gc.ca/eng/csj-sj...dch/index.html

In other words, those numbers went up because we are more strict about what constitutes a hate crime.

[ResAlien]

So they’ve always been more numerous and worse than we thought?

[Yeah_Baby]

Love to have strangers on the internet tell me I have nothing to worry despite my lived experience.

[CliffFletcher]

Originally Posted by PepsiFree

I’m sorry, but you either believe LGBTQ people should be able to live their lives just the same as anyone else without discrimination, or you don’t.

What specific discrimination do you want to see removed?

[CliffFletcher]

Originally Posted by rubecube

What disadvantages or what accommodations should be provided?

What accommodations.

[TheIronMaiden]

Originally Posted by ResAlien

So they’ve always been more numerous and worse than we thought?

Yeah, basically it has always been bad. But we know that it was and is bad. Denying that would be ignorant.

[ResAlien]

Originally Posted by Yeah_Baby

Love to have strangers on the internet tell me I have nothing to worry despite my lived experience.

You’re simply too close to the conversation. What you need is a set of clear eyes to view it from 10,000 feet and my middle aged straight white male eyes just so happen to be very objective.

[rubecube]

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

What accommodations.

Let me preempt this by saying that I think you and I could find some common ground here. In an ideal world, Canada would have a more positive attitude towards universal programs that benefit everyone. However, we live in a country that is still largely neoliberal in its approach to fixing social problems. As such, we're stuck doing carve outs for the most vulnerable.

Someone within that community would be better equipped to answer your question than I am, because they're going to have a better handle on what areas of society they feel particularly disadvantaged and vulnerable by. That said, areas such as health care and housing often underserve the queer (especially trans) community, so those are probably the areas that I would start with. Employment services would also probably be helpful, as employment opportunities are often more limited to queer folks because of the real and perceived hostilities that exist within certain industries.

I understand that's a pretty broad/vague answer, but not sure if this is the time or place for ultra-specific policy proposals, especially when I'm not a part of the target community and lack the expertise.

[PepsiFree]

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

What specific discrimination do you want to see removed?

All of it. Everywhere.

[CliffFletcher]

Originally Posted by PepsiFree

All of it. Everywhere.

You really can’t name any examples of a law or policy you’d like to see changed?

[Sliver]

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

You really can’t name any examples of a law or policy you’d like to see changed?

I'm curious as well.

Are there any discriminatory laws? That'd be fkd up if there are. I remember hearing about couples not being able to visit each other in the hospital years ago...that sounded positively evil. Imagine being the nurse enforcing that - like, if there was ever a rule to break that'd be up there.

Any less tangible things maybe some of us are doing unintentionally that are counter to being helpful/supportive/moving things forward toward a larger goal? Earlier I said I hadn't been to a pride event - is that a 'meh' to community members, or is that one of those silence-is-helping-the-bigots things?

Is treating LGTBQ people just like you'd treat anybody else going far enough, or is that frustratingly not that helpful?

I'm unclear if there are expectations some of us are not meeting.

[Fuzz]

The laws around teachers outing kids...

[Jason14h]

Originally Posted by PepsiFree

This isn’t directed at you, but it’s actually one of the biggest problems I have with people turning this into a “two sides” issues with “room in the middle.” I’m sorry, but you either believe LGBTQ people should be able to live their lives just the same as anyone else without discrimination, or you don’t. And I think most people do, so you (again not “you,” but the general “you”) are not “in the middle” or whatever, we’re all on the same side. The only other “side” is people who want to ensure other people stay lesser than.

I am not in the middle. I believe these groups should have every right afforded to every other Canadian. I believe anyone who commits a crime against a person of these groups should be prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law.

I think the protests are rediculous, abhorrent and any other adjective we want to use.

But I also realize people will hate other people - and within the law can do what they want. People hate other people for many stupid reasons. If they are not breaking the law other then disassociating with these people what do you want done?

It has been asked many times in this thread- But what do you actually want to change? Other then wishing "People would be nicer?/Not ignorant"

Colored crosswalks, story time, etc doesn't change people's minds (In fact it probably adds to their anger) -

These also aren't things, and I quote, that contribute too "you either believe LGBTQ people should be able to live their lives just the same as anyone else without discrimination, or you don’t"

So what do you think Canada needs to do differently? Other then removes freedom of speech from people who don't like this community? Because that is the only way to actually silence a person. Make it criminal to express that opinion.

[Sliver]

Originally Posted by Jason14h

I am not in the middle. I believe these groups should have every right afforded to every other Canadian. I believe anyone who commits a crime against a person of these groups should be prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law.

I think the protests are rediculous, abhorrent and any other adjective we want to use.

But I also realize people will hate other people - and within the law can do what they want. People hate other people for many stupid reasons. If they are not breaking the law other then disassociating with these people what do you want done?

It has been asked many times in this thread- But what do you actually want to change? Other then wishing "People would be nicer?/Not ignorant"

Colored crosswalks, story time, etc doesn't change people's minds (In fact it probably adds to their anger) -

These also aren't things, and I quote, that contribute too "you either believe LGBTQ people should be able to live their lives just the same as anyone else without discrimination, or you don’t"

So what do you think Canada needs to do differently? Other then removes freedom of speech from people who don't like this community? Because that is the only way to actually silence a person. Make it criminal to express that opinion.

I don't know, though. An angry guy getting angrier is kind of what angry guys do, so fk 'em.

I think it's good the younger generation(s) are growing up in a world where tolerance is displayed. Especially if they're being raised in a bigoted home where LGBTQ is bad or something. Crosswalks and such are a simple way to broadcast tolerance. I like that my kids have been raised in a world with pride flags. I think the first pride crosswalk we saw was in Banff and we all thought it was pretty cool. It's nice to have public policies and displays that are inviting to everyone.