Tracking the anti-LBGTQ+ movement

[CliffFletcher]

Alberta isn’t much different from other provinces when it comes to attitudes around LGBTQ issues.

People who identify as LGBTQ are choosing to be LGBTQ (as opposed to born with that identity):

Alberta 22 per cent
B.C. 22
Ontario 21
Quebec 27
Canada 24

Strongly oppose SOGI-inclusive education

Alberta 13
B.C. 8
Ontario 10
Quebec 7
Canada 9

Should schools be compelled to inform parents if students join gay-straight alliances?

Definitely yes

Alberta 21
B.C. 19
Ontario 19
Quebec 17
Canada 18

Same-sex couples should not have any kind of legal recognization

Alberta 10
B.C. 7
Ontario 12
Quebec 9
Canada 10

https://researchco.ca/wp-content/upl..._01Aug2019.pdf

The poll also includes data on beliefs by heritage. Unsurprisingly, it turns out that people with origins in extremely conservative cultures tend to be more conservative than people native to one of the most liberal societies in the world.

Born as LGBTQ

European 51
East Asian 34
South Asian 24

Same-sex couples should continue to be allowed to marry.

European 71
East Asian 44
South Asian 42

[TheIronMaiden]

This is about what I thought.

If we are to completely reify and flatten the data we could loosely argue that about 1/5 Canadians are on the homophobic spectrum.

It feels like a lot less, I live in rural alberta, in one of the most religious and conservative ridings, and I would argue that the use of homophobic slurs are down 95%.

I think that what we are seeing if anything, is the last desperate thralls of it.

[GordonBlue]

I posted this in the Alberta thread, but it fits here too, speaking of small town homophobes.

Residents to vote on bylaw that would force Alberta town to remove its Pride crosswalk
Westlock could be 1st town in province to lose rainbow crossing, acting mayor says

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/edmon...ylaw-1.7049801

The rainbow crosswalk is the only piece of town infrastructure that would violate the proposed bylaw, he said. If the bylaw passes, the town would be required to remove it.

"It is a direct response to the rainbow crosswalk," he said. "These two matters are not isolated; they are connected."

Bakker submitted her petition to the town at the end of September. It was formally verified on Oct. 30. Its contents were then formulated into the wording for a bylaw, which was presented to council for first reading on Nov. 27.

Councillors said Bakker's petition targets a minority group.

"In my opinion, this is lipstick on bigotry," Coun. Laura Morie said at the Nov. 27 meeting.

[GordonBlue]

Originally Posted by TheIronMaiden

This is about what I thought.

If we are to completely reify and flatten the data we could loosely argue that about 1/5 Canadians are on the homophobic spectrum.

It feels like a lot less, I live in rural alberta, in one of the most religious and conservative ridings, and I would argue that the use of homophobic slurs are down 95%.

I think that what we are seeing if anything, is the last desperate thralls of it.

I would argue that they still hate gays but are smarter about hiding what they really feel and who they really are.

[TheIronMaiden]

Originally Posted by GordonBlue

I would argue that they still hate gays but are smarter about hiding what they really feel and who they really are.

I think that 90% of people are totally apathetic or ignorant. The other 10% are over the age of 60 and we just need to wait for them to die.

[GordonBlue]

Originally Posted by TheIronMaiden

I think that 90% of people are totally apathetic or ignorant. The other 10% are over the age of 60 and we just need to wait for them to die.

disagree.

Look at the anti-drag protesters for example. There's a lot of younger people in those groups frothing at the mouth about the "groomers".

This isn't going to "die off" especially as hate has really gone mainstream these last few years.

[Yeah_Baby]

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

Alberta isn’t much different from other provinces when it comes to attitudes around LGBTQ issues.

People who identify as LGBTQ are choosing to be LGBTQ (as opposed to born with that identity):

Alberta 22 per cent
B.C. 22
Ontario 21
Quebec 27
Canada 24

Strongly oppose SOGI-inclusive education

Alberta 13
B.C. 8
Ontario 10
Quebec 7
Canada 9

Should schools be compelled to inform parents if students join gay-straight alliances?

Definitely yes

Alberta 21
B.C. 19
Ontario 19
Quebec 17
Canada 18

Same-sex couples should not have any kind of legal recognization

Alberta 10
B.C. 7
Ontario 12
Quebec 9
Canada 10

https://researchco.ca/wp-content/upl..._01Aug2019.pdf

The poll also includes data on beliefs by heritage. Unsurprisingly, it turns out that people with origins in extremely conservative cultures tend to be more conservative than people native to one of the most liberal societies in the world.

Born as LGBTQ

European 51
East Asian 34
South Asian 24

Same-sex couples should continue to be allowed to marry.

European 71
East Asian 44
South Asian 42

I was talking to my friend's dad during The Amazing Race Canada which had a team of two Drag Queens. He was telling me how he didn't care they were gay, he had no issue with it, and then outlined all the reasons he didn't like them/found them annoying and they were all the qualities of behavior they were exhibiting of queerness outside a stoic masc norm.


I think this is where the real rub is. Not what people believe or would respond in a survey, but the next step of being aware of internal bias and microaggressions. Doesn't make my friend's dad a bigot, or a bad person, just a window into where he is on his journey.

That being said, if you're the queer person and everyone around you heaps on the microagressions. Those pile up. As do the dog whistles, thinly veiled or not, like the Westlock thing.

I think too, the fight for marriage equality (here almost 20 years ago and the states much more recently) is extremely important, but also isn't the be all end all of Queer existence. And culture a focus largely of cis white men marrying other cis white men as the focus of the movement literally white washes the ways within our community that colonial attitudes are still entrenched. Especially when you consider the rate in which BIPOC transwomen are statistically more likely to get murdered for just being who they are.


Also: Are you suggesting being Queer is a choice? Or merely that the respondants for the sake of the survey ID's as Queer?

[undercoverbrother]

Originally Posted by TheIronMaiden

I think that 90% of people are totally apathetic or ignorant. The other 10% are over the age of 60 and we just need to wait for them to die.

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/edmon...ylaw-1.7049801

Nah, I think you are wrong.

6 years living in Central Alberta told me bigotry is alive and well

[Ozy_Flame]

Originally Posted by TheIronMaiden

This is about what I thought.

If we are to completely reify and flatten the data we could loosely argue that about 1/5 Canadians are on the homophobic spectrum.

Sure seems like the political parties these people are members of spend a good chunk of their time fighting culture wars to prevent LGBTQ2S+ equal treatment or completely ignoring it altogether.

[TheIronMaiden]

Originally Posted by undercoverbrother

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/edmon...ylaw-1.7049801

Nah, I think you are wrong.

6 years living in Central Alberta told me bigotry is alive and well

In the 2021 municipal election for westlock 1221 people voted out of an eligible 4265. In other words 28.6% of people cared enough to cast a vote.
of those how many would need to be in support of this bylaw? 800? So 18% of the town? about the same as the national rate that Cliff fletcher provided evidence for.

This is no way suggests that this isn't awful and regressive, but it is a minority of people who are typically 1. evangelical 2. over the age of 60 3. socially conservative country ( see 1).

Honestly, I think we only see this number shrink, Canada, Canadians, Alberta and Albertans overwhelmingly support LGBTQ2+ rights. That said there is an unfortunate and very vocal group of hateful people that make up 20% of the population.

[CliffFletcher]

Originally Posted by Yeah_Baby

Also: Are you suggesting being Queer is a choice? Or merely that the respondants for the sake of the survey ID's as Queer?

The questions were from the survey. You can see the survey itself by following the link.

[rubecube]

My initial point, before this thread got completely derailed, was that what's happening in Russia is the endgame for the anti-LGBTQ+ movement.

Whether what's happening in Russia is likely to happen in Canada isn't really my point. What we are seeing in Canada, is the increased framing of LGBTQ+ movements/peoples as violent radicals, groomers, and pedophiles. The results of this have been increased hostility and violence towards an already marginalized community. IMO, we need to consistently call out and confront these attitudes in Canada, and not stick our heads in the sand when certain political leaders/parties are dog-whistling to this form of hatred.

It's great that the law theoretically criminalizes violent acts against these folks, but that doesn't change the reality of what the queer community faces on a day-to-day basis and the accompanying terror associated with it.

I'm also not sure why Cliff is appealing to universalism. Are we supposed to pretend as though these people do not currently have different lived experiences based on their identities, and regardless of what the law states? Are you saying that the disproportionate harm these folks experience is acceptable collateral damage, lest we stray from the ideals of liberal universalism?

[bizaro86]

Originally Posted by Yeah_Baby

Also: Are you suggesting being Queer is a choice? Or merely that the respondants for the sake of the survey ID's as Queer?

That was pretty clearly a survey question used to evaluate people's attitude towards LGBTQ issues. Cliff noted that AB had similar responses to other provinces.

[CliffFletcher]

Originally Posted by rubecube

I'm also not sure why Cliff is appealing to universalism. Are we supposed to pretend as though these people do not currently have different lived experiences based on their identities, and regardless of what the law states? Are you saying that the disproportionate harm these folks experience is acceptable collateral damage, lest we stray from the ideals of liberal universalism?

I’m not saying it’s acceptable. I’m questioning how we talk about equality. It’s one of those terms that’s used so indiscriminately that it has become almost meaningless. It’s like championing freedom. Sounds great. What does it actually mean?

Our institutions can craft laws and policies that treat people the same. That’s equality in the formal sense. If you’re talking about harm being done to people - violence and hate speech - we have that in the books. Beating up or threatening to beat up a gay person in 2023 carries legal consequences, just as targeting a straight person does. If there’s an incident where it doesn’t, then we need to investigate that and find out why.

None of that can change how people feel about others. Or how they speak about them, short of hate speech. That has nothing to do with equality. It has to do with fear and bigotry. You can’t mandate that people feel the same about everyone else.

Anti-Semitism in Canada has a long history. Is it because Jews in Canada today aren’t equal with gentiles? No. It’s because some people have ugly beliefs.

We should call out bigotry of all kinds when we see it. What more beyond that do you think we should be doing that we aren’t doing now?

[rubecube]

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

We should call out bigotry of all kinds when we see it. What more beyond that do you think we should be doing that we aren’t doing now?

First and foremost, I think we need to acknowledge that the attitudes towards these people contributes to unique disadvantages faced by them. As such, there may be a need for programs and special accommodations afforded to them to mitigate the disadvantages they face.

Denying these accommodations and decrying them as "identity politics" because they're an affront to your "universal liberal" ideals is an incredibly reactionary position to take, IMO. At best, it's ignorant of the lived experiences of these people (as well as the quantitative data on these issues), and at worst it's allowing them to be collateral damage to maintain these ideals.

This isn't about equality of outcome. It really is about equality of opportunity. The de jure status and opportunities afforded to LGBTQ+ folks do not reflect the de facto conditions.

[Fuzz]

If you view Cliff's position through, say, applying the same ideals to disabled people and that no accommodations should be made for their unique challenges, you can see where it falls apart. Not everyone is treated equally, nor should they be.

Because there is a significant minority of the population that views the LGBTQ+ as lesser than, it seems reasonable we make accommodations to balance that, and that this group may need special protections of their rights from politicians holding these views and legislating damaging policies. While they may not be technically illegal policies, they are harmful.

Is banning rainbow crossings illegal? No, of course not. Is it harmful? Pretty obviously so(empowering bigots).

[blender]

Originally Posted by rubecube

My initial point, before this thread got completely derailed, was that what's happening in Russia is the endgame for the anti-LGBTQ+ movement.

Whether what's happening in Russia is likely to happen in Canada isn't really my point. What we are seeing in Canada, is the increased framing of LGBTQ+ movements/peoples as violent radicals, groomers, and pedophiles. The results of this have been increased hostility and violence towards an already marginalized community. IMO, we need to consistently call out and confront these attitudes in Canada, and not stick our heads in the sand when certain political leaders/parties are dog-whistling to this form of hatred.

Just to add my observation of a recent experience in Kamloops:
Last month there was a well-publicized march/protest against the SOGI curriculum where the protesters announced ahead of time their intention to march past a couple of downtown schools on their way to the school district office. It was the usual gang of freedumb fighters of course, but what I saw was a large contingent of LGBTQ supporters out in the streets as a counterprotest. They took over the day and changed the narrative into one of inclusiveness.
I would say that in this case at least people are not standing by or sticking their heads in the sand.

[Jason14h]

Originally Posted by rubecube

Whether what's happening in Russia is likely to happen in Canada isn't really my point. What we are seeing in Canada, is the increased framing of LGBTQ+ movements/peoples as violent radicals, groomers, and pedophiles.

The results of this have been increased hostility and violence towards an already marginalized community. IMO, we need to consistently call out and confront these attitudes in Canada, and not stick our heads in the sand when certain political leaders/parties are dog-whistling to this form of hatred.

Has there been an increases in hostility and violence? I've never seen stats showing this in Canada.

It sure seems like acceptance is at an all time high and violence is at an all time low.

I am not sure how you think things were for LGBT for the past 5 decades, or how it is in other countries, but the movement and acceptance has come extremely far worldwide

Do you really believe LGBT are NOW being framed as - and I quote "violent radicals, groomers, and pedophiles" - Guess what - They were in the past and at extremely higher level across the country and the world. Less people today then ever before would frame the community this way - And less people will every year that passes.

I dont think people are sticking their heads in the sand either - But in a country of 40 million people, there is only so much outrage someone can have before they get tired (Unless you sit on social media all day looking for things to be outraged over).

Things are getting better for these groups by the day. It doesn't mean that terrible things worldwide don't still happen, but for almost everyone in the LGBT community life is exponentially better today then anytime in the past.

[Whynotnow]

Take a peak at Uganda’s recent moves as well. Fueled and backed by the north American religious right they have passed some of the most repressive and regressive laws around. The tactics and strategies are different depending on the jurisdiction but there most certainly is a concerted effort to move against this group.

[Fuzz]

Originally Posted by Jason14h

Has there been an increases in hostility and violence? I've never seen stats showing this in Canada.

It sure seems like acceptance is at an all time high and violence is at an all time low.

I am not sure how you think things were for LGBT for the past 5 decades, or how it is in other countries, but the movement and acceptance has come extremely far worldwide

Do you really believe LGBT are NOW being framed as - and I quote "violent radicals, groomers, and pedophiles" - Guess what - They were in the past and at extremely higher level across the country and the world. Less people then ever would frame the community this way - And less people will every year that passes.

I dont think people are sticking their heads in the sand either - But in a country of 40 million people, there is only so much outrage someone can have before they get tired (Unless you sit on social media all day looking for things to be outraged over).

Things are getting better for these groups by the day. It doesn't mean that terrible things worldwide don't still happen, but for almost everyone in the LGBT community life is exponentially better today then anytime in the past.

I really don't think you can or should speak for them like that. How would you know? And better does not in any way mean good or acceptable.