Who bought gas on May 15th?

[The Unabomber]

Originally Posted by Cowboy89

Since when is making money and being profitable a sin? Unless you work for the government or non-profit, or are just plain unemployed, the money you make is paid out by the cash flow that your company takes in. Even if you're in the prior categories you are paid indirectly by the profits of corporations or individuals.

Your angst seems to stem from the simplistic notion that you cringe when you see the headline "Encana's quarterly profit soars to $1.9 Billion." That number looks big and when you pay more at the pump it annoys you. There is context to the number as well considering that Encana actually spends $6 Billion a year on wages, Service contracts, infrastructure for projects, etc. If they weren't cranking out a $1.9 Billion quarterly profit on their capital employed then their shareholders would have their heads. If somehow you wanted to trim that profit level down to a few hundred million a quarter then it would tremendously underperform other companies in which to invest in. BTW feel free to buy oil company stock to insulate you from any losses you experience at the pump.

And don't forget the open bar, week long stampede parties that they hold every year. I understand the profit end of things, the problem i have is that the gas prices go up further and further each summer, why? People drive more in the summer? People might take more road trips but those same people might feel like riding a bike to work as it's nice outside. The rationale used to explain this is a joke, hey, it's a long weekend so why don't we raise the price of gas.

[ken0042]

OK guys, as this discussion gets interesting, let's not forget to make sure we are having a discussion, not slinging insults.

Nobody has crossed the line yet, but some have been close.

If somebody has a point you disagree with, argue the facts and not the poster.

[firebug]

Originally Posted by The Unabomber

So how do i get my tools from one job-site to another? I doubt a bus is going to want to wait for me to load a truck-load of tools into the bus, and biking doesn't work for the same reason. Some people actually do NEED it, it's not a choice.

So lets see...

You have a truck and tools eh...

I am in the situation where I am being gouged by some guys with trucks and tools who think they can charge me obscene amounts to do some minor construction around my house (deck and fence). When I tell them that what they are charging is way too profitable for them, they tell me to screw off as there are many other clients more than willing to pay their fees.

I am willing to offer you $8/hr for up to 25hrs of work (cash, and well above the minimum wage I might add) plus a milage charge (even include a fuel surcharge if you wish).

If you are interested feel free to PM me.

Best regards,

~Bug

[SeeGeeWhy]

Originally Posted by firebug

So lets see...

You have a truck and tools eh...

I am in the situation where I am being gouged by some guys with trucks and tools who think they can charge me obscene amounts to do some minor construction around my house (deck and fence). When I tell them that what they are charging is way too profitable for them, they tell me to screw off as there are many other clients more than willing to pay their fees.

I am willing to offer you $8/hr for up to 25hrs of work (cash, and well above the minimum wage I might add) plus a milage charge (even include a fuel surcharge if you wish).

If you are interested feel free to PM me.

Best regards,

~Bug

Grabs chair, coffee, and waits...

[The Unabomber]

Originally Posted by firebug

So lets see...

You have a truck and tools eh...

I am in the situation where I am being gouged by some guys with trucks and tools who think they can charge me obscene amounts to do some minor construction around my house (deck and fence). When I tell them that what they are charging is way too profitable for them, they tell me to screw off as there are many other clients more than willing to pay their fees.

I am willing to offer you $8/hr for up to 25hrs of work (cash, and well above the minimum wage I might add) plus a milage charge (even include a fuel surcharge if you wish).

If you are interested feel free to PM me.

Best regards,

~Bug

That's cool, not interested, but if you open the yellow pages you can find many other options out there and you might get lucky and find one. Can i open the yellow pages to find cheaper gas? Great comparison though.

[The Unabomber]

Originally Posted by fotze

My buddy works for a big oil company, he just bought a Volkswagon Touareg with his after tax bonus. Remember when Encana had that massive party where they bussed everyone and go them hammered up. It was sweet

That is sweet, good for the buddy of yours.

[ken0042]

Just to take the construction analogy a little further- the one factor is the labour. A guy can charge as little as he wants to do a job; if he wants to do it for $7/hour, then he can.

Perhaps a better comparison would be the cost of something like cement. Last year I was able to buy it for $140/ m3. This year I'm looking at around $200/ m3. Now some of it is cost of fuel, but not all of it.

I'm still not saying I like what the oil companies do, but I have to admit there have been some good points made.

[Cowboy89]

Originally Posted by The Unabomber

And don't forget the open bar, week long stampede parties that they hold every year. I understand the profit end of things, the problem i have is that the gas prices go up further and further each summer, why? People drive more in the summer? People might take more road trips but those same people might feel like riding a bike to work as it's nice outside. The rationale used to explain this is a joke, hey, it's a long weekend so why don't we raise the price of gas.

All you have to do is look at gasoline inventory reports. They go up because demand is up. The price is high because the supply is tight.

It's easy for people who don't understand the supply chain to question why something costs more a couple of weeks later. Afterall when talking about energy most people's experience as to how it happens entails flicking a light switch and turning on a gas pump and realiably it's almost always there and back in the 1980s and 1990s in the range of what was considered a 'reasonable price'. From where they stand nothing's changed and they are dumbfounded that somehow flicking on that same light switch and turning on that same gas pump could concievably cost more than it did last month, last year, last decade.

Thing is the geology, and engineering restraints on the energy business has never been more challanging than the last few years (The world isn't the same), and we're relying on pretty much the exact same refining and marketing infrastructure as the 1970's to make it happen. We've reached the capacity of where that infrastructure can take us and on top of that the Chinese and Indian people are now starting to up their oil and gas consumption towards the levels you or I use thus bidding up the cost of Crude oil. It's possible to continue to supply your gas needs into the future by building more refineries and pipelines etc, but it's only now (due to higher gasoline prices) economical to do so. It'll take some years to build more infrastructure to accomidate increasing demand. Even then don't expect a break at the pump because the enviro crowd will be out in full force between now and then ensuring you don't pay any less to pollute.

[Cowboy89]

Originally Posted by The Unabomber

That's cool, not interested, but if you open the yellow pages you can find many other options out there and you might get lucky and find one. Can i open the yellow pages to find cheaper gas? Great comparison though.

No, but if the world worked like that for gas you'd find that no one would be cheaper than the current price and you'd have to call a number of stations to get that $1.16/litre because none of them would have their price posted on the outside for competitors to match. All it is would be a 'percieved fair price.' Prices for anything are not concrete objects set in stone. Prices are relative, they are what the retailer can get from the buyer. When a competitor a few blocks away has their price right outside the window it's hard for any retailer to charge more than the other guy especially when they're selling the same product. In the case of handymen some are better than others, you're not going to get the same quality. Maybe it would make you feel better if you had the satisfaction of achieving that best price by spending an hour on the phone each time you wanted gas but you wouldn't pay less.

[The Unabomber]

Originally Posted by Cowboy89

All you have to do is look at gasoline inventory reports. They go up because demand is up. The price is high because the supply is tight.

It's easy for people who don't understand the supply chain to question why something costs more a couple of weeks later. Afterall when talking about energy most people's experience as to how it happens entails flicking a light switch and turning on a gas pump and realiably it's almost always there and back in the 1980s and 1990s in the range of what was considered a 'reasonable price'. From where they stand nothing's changed and they are dumbfounded that somehow flicking on that same light switch and turning on that same gas pump could concievably cost more than it did last month, last year, last decade.

Thing is the geology, and engineering restraints on the energy business has never been more challanging than the last few years (The world isn't the same), and we're relying on pretty much the exact same refining and marketing infrastructure as the 1970's to make it happen. We've reached the capacity of where that infrastructure can take us and on top of that the Chinese and Indian people are now starting to up their oil and gas consumption towards the levels you or I use thus bidding up the cost of Crude oil. It's possible to continue to supply your gas needs into the future by building more refineries and pipelines etc, but it's only now (due to higher gasoline prices) economical to do so. It'll take some years to build more infrastructure to accomidate increasing demand. Even then don't expect a break at the pump because the enviro crowd will be out in full force between now and then ensuring you don't pay any less to pollute.

I have read a number of times that gas companies have limited the number of refineries in order to keep their profits high, i'm no expert on it but doing a quick search on the internet i found many links related to this. If this is the case then how can anyone really defend these companies?

Here is a clip from the story

“Large oil companies have for a decade artificially shorted the [COLOR=#0000cc! important][FONT='Lucida Grande','Bitstream Vera Sans',Verdana,Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif][COLOR=#0000cc! important][FONT='Lucida Grande','Bitstream Vera Sans',Verdana,Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif]gasoline [/FONT][COLOR=#0000cc! important][FONT='Lucida Grande','Bitstream Vera Sans',Verdana,Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif]market[/FONT][/COLOR][/FONT][/COLOR][/COLOR] to drive up prices,” said FTCR president Jamie Court, who successfully fought to keep Shell Oil from needlessly closing its Bakersfield, California refinery this year. “Oil companies know they can make more money by making less gasoline. Katrina should be a wakeup call to America that the refiners profit widely when they keep the system running on empty.”

Interesting read. I see what you are saying with the oil and gas use increasing as countries that used little of either earlier are now using more. If there was an affordable alternative then i would have no reason to dislike the oil and gas companies.

[Cowboy89]

Originally Posted by The Unabomber

I have read a number of times that gas companies have limited the number of refineries in order to keep their profits high, i'm no expert on it but doing a quick search on the internet i found many links related to this. If this is the case then how can anyone really defend these companies?

Here is a clip from the story

“Large oil companies have for a decade artificially shorted the [COLOR=#0000cc! important][FONT='Lucida Grande','Bitstream Vera Sans',Verdana,Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif][COLOR=#0000cc! important][FONT='Lucida Grande','Bitstream Vera Sans',Verdana,Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif]gasoline [/font][COLOR=#0000cc! important][FONT='Lucida Grande','Bitstream Vera Sans',Verdana,Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif]market[/font][/color][/font][/color][/color] to drive up prices,” said FTCR president Jamie Court, who successfully fought to keep Shell Oil from needlessly closing its Bakersfield, California refinery this year. “Oil companies know they can make more money by making less gasoline. Katrina should be a wakeup call to America that the refiners profit widely when they keep the system running on empty.”

Interesting read. I see what you are saying with the oil and gas use increasing as countries that used little of either earlier are now using more. If there was an affordable alternative then i would have no reason to dislike the oil and gas companies.

Ah yes the infamous 'memo's' of the 1990's. Back then 3-2-1 crack spreads were almost negative and refiners lost money. If you're losing money why should any individual company continue to produce at a loss? Why not shut down refineries to increase price into a profitable range? There's no law that says you have to produce at a certain level always. But in the example of Imperial Oil this last quarter they had a fire at their Nanitoke Ontario refinery and had to shut it down for weeks. Gas prices shot up through the roof due to lack of supply. Imperial had a bad quarter while their competitors raked in the profits of higher prices. No company is going to voluntarily miss out on profits to line their competitors pockets.

[The Yen Man]

It's funny how when gas prices rise and O&G companies make a profit, they're gouging, but when they drop and O&G companies lose money, it's the market. So if people agree to a price ceiling for gas, would they also agree to a price floor, where if it ever dips below a certain amount, then O&G Companies are protected from losing money and we the consumers end up paying more money to ensure that these same companies are still profitable? It goes both ways you know.

[Cowboy89]

Originally Posted by The Yen Man

It's funny how when gas prices rise and O&G companies make a profit, they're gouging, but when they drop and O&G companies lose money, it's the market. So if people agree to a price ceiling for gas, would they also agree to a price floor, where if it ever dips below a certain amount, then O&G Companies are protected from losing money and we the consumers end up paying more money to ensure that these same companies are still profitable? It goes both ways you know.

I agree with you in theory. I think the big reason why people get so up in arms about gas prices is that no one likes to pay more for something that cost less in the past. It has nothing to do with rational and all to do with emotion. If you've ever worked retail in a restaurant or grocery store whenever the price goes up for anything the usual customer complaints are 'it's been $3.50 for years, you're ripping us off,' regardless of whether or not there's a good reason for it. My take is that the price, is what it is, and if you're not willing to pay it, don't.

Then there's the arguement that people NEED to consume fuel in the habits they've becomed accustomed to. In reality if a gun was pointed at their heads to reduce fuel consumption, they would find a way. No one is 'entitled' to their lifestyle of free mobility in a car and there are alternatives. They may be severly less attractive than having your own car but if cost was really that big a factor you just wouldn't drive as much. As a retailer you can only charge so much until either a competitor supplies more to meet the demand or the consumers buy less and you make less money. There is an equalibrium here.

[Kerplunk]

Originally Posted by Peanut

Then move.

If you want to change your lifestyle, you can.

I'll get right on that...you got $300 000 I can borrow? That area is considered inner city, and the prices are a little steep because of it.

[Kerplunk]

Originally Posted by Bring_Back_Shantz

I love it when people complain about gas prices and say that they have no alternative to driving.

Temple to Chinook? What, are there no busses in Temple, or chinook? I doubt it.

What most people mean when they say things like "I have to drive to get to work" is "It's easier/quicker to drive to work".

I've tried the bus thing. Yes I can get to work, however it severely impacts lifestyle (not to mention my health).

Cost analysis:
Cost of gas a month: $90
Cost of bus pass: $75
Time spent driving a month: 13.5 hours
Time spend on the bus a month: 50 hours

If you consider that I could be doing other stuff (i.e. contract work, fixing up around the house, etc.) within that 36.5 hour difference between the bus and car trips, the public transit solution just isn't viable (which was a key word in one of my posts).

[Kerplunk]

Originally Posted by The Unabomber

That's cool, not interested, but if you open the yellow pages you can find many other options out there and you might get lucky and find one. Can i open the yellow pages to find cheaper gas? Great comparison though.

This is one of the things that confuses me in this thread. Many are comparing gas prices to other industries. The two that pop up the most, construction and retail, all have competition. Don't like one, go to another. Wait for a good deal in the off-season. Do it yourself (yes, you CAN build your own deck...but it's a pain). If I want cheaper gas, I can't (most times) just go down the street to a cheaper station, or make my own. No competition is bad for consumers.

I thought that the report from the Canadian Centre for Policy Alternatives summed it up in their recent report:
http://www.cbc.ca/consumer/story/200...as-report.html

(side note: the Government could always help out by cutting down the taxes too....)

[Cowboy89]

Originally Posted by Kerplunk

This is one of the things that confuses me in this thread. Many are comparing gas prices to other industries. The two that pop up the most, construction and retail, all have competition. Don't like one, go to another. Wait for a good deal in the off-season. Do it yourself (yes, you CAN build your own deck...but it's a pain). If I want cheaper gas, I can't (most times) just go down the street to a cheaper station, or make my own. No competition is bad for consumers.

I thought that the report from the Canadian Centre for Policy Alternatives summed it up in their recent report:
http://www.cbc.ca/consumer/story/200...as-report.html

(side note: the Government could always help out by cutting down the taxes too....)

The CCPA fails to understand the concept of Supply/Demand and only looks at a 'costplus' methodology. All that tells you is where the oil companies make more profit and not what price keeps a reliable supply at the service station. As I've mentioned many times in this thread the price is not simply costs plus a percentage profit. It is what price demand is willing to pay (Just like any other good or service).

[Kerplunk]

Originally Posted by Cowboy89

The CCPA fails to understand the concept of Supply/Demand and only looks at a 'costplus' methodology. All that tells you is where the oil companies make more profit and not what price keeps a reliable supply at the service station. As I've mentioned many times in this thread the price is not simply costs plus a percentage profit. It is what price demand is willing to pay (Just like any other good or service).

But doesn't the traditional supply and demand model also require a competitive free market? If this is the case, then wouldn't the oil and gas industry fall under a more non-traditional curve, especially since the cost of the raw material is an industry constant (and easily influenced by future speculation)?

[Hemi-Cuda]

Originally Posted by Kerplunk

I've tried the bus thing. Yes I can get to work, however it severely impacts lifestyle (not to mention my health).

Cost analysis:
Cost of gas a month: $90
Cost of bus pass: $75
Time spent driving a month: 13.5 hours
Time spend on the bus a month: 50 hours

If you consider that I could be doing other stuff (i.e. contract work, fixing up around the house, etc.) within that 36.5 hour difference between the bus and car trips, the public transit solution just isn't viable (which was a key word in one of my posts).

you can't forget that rising fuel prices will also eventually raise bus fares. all these "if gas is too expensive, don't buy it" people fail to realize that high fuel prices affect EVERYTHING, not just drivers. everything you buy in stores will be more expensive due to higher transportation costs, airline tickets will rise in price, schools will have to deal with higher operating costs trying to bus all their kids in, the list goes on. unless you're a hermit living in the mountains, high fuel prices DO affect you

and that's also why i don't think that fuel should be subject to a free market system, as it has become a neccessity. i equate it to electricity, sure technically it's not needed for human survival, but our society has enveloped so far around it that without it, there would be collapse. i guess that's the price you pay though for making our civilization dependant on a finite resourse

[The Unabomber]

Originally Posted by Cowboy89

I agree with you in theory. I think the big reason why people get so up in arms about gas prices is that no one likes to pay more for something that cost less in the past. It has nothing to do with rational and all to do with emotion. If you've ever worked retail in a restaurant or grocery store whenever the price goes up for anything the usual customer complaints are 'it's been $3.50 for years, you're ripping us off,' regardless of whether or not there's a good reason for it. My take is that the price, is what it is, and if you're not willing to pay it, don't.

Then there's the arguement that people NEED to consume fuel in the habits they've becomed accustomed to. In reality if a gun was pointed at their heads to reduce fuel consumption, they would find a way. No one is 'entitled' to their lifestyle of free mobility in a car and there are alternatives. They may be severly less attractive than having your own car but if cost was really that big a factor you just wouldn't drive as much. As a retailer you can only charge so much until either a competitor supplies more to meet the demand or the consumers buy less and you make less money. There is an equalibrium here.

How can you bring up a point about competition in the gas industry? What competition do you speak of on the consumer level? Petro Canada is and will be selling gas at the same price as Shell.......doesn't seem like competition. These alternatives that you have in mind, name a few viable ones for a person that uses a vehicle for work, be it a trade or a farmer. Are you proposing that farmer can start using horses to seed and plow?