The dumbing down of America continues...

[jayswin]

I always struggle to understand where I sit on this issue. On one hand I believe that the bible shouldn't be picked apart scientifically, as I don't feel that the bible should be taken so literally. But then I see videos like the one posted in this thread, and I feel sick to stomach seeing those kids being indoctrinated like that.

As a mature adult (22 years old), evolution is just so much more fascinating to me, and obviously more realistic, and I find it really shocking the number of Americans who truley believe that stuff, to the point where a lot of them literally sound like drugged zombies who have been programed to repeat things that I think deep down, they don't even believe are true.

But what makes me sit more on the fence than I should is that I believe the bible and religion have a lot to offer to the world, it's just the people in charge seem to put the focus on the wrong things......

I think the real beauty of religion is when someone has nowhere to turn and feels hopeless, but then turns to "god" and starts to find hope. Or wen someone needs to feel like there's a higher power, or a meaning for them being alive, and they find that meaning in god. It seems that people seem more focused on "calling out" other religions and beliefs and trying to convert the whole world to the "right" religion, instead of focusing on being open and helping the people that truley need help.

If there is a god, I wonder if he looks down on us and thinks the way people are handling religion isn't the way he intended it to be handled. I believe that the bible and god should be interpreted differently by different people and that's the beauty of it. I believe that people that read the bible should take what they want from it and kind of use it as a guide to help them be a better person, and as something to fall back on when times are tough, rather than taking their religion so literally that they sound like 5 year old children trying to dispell scientific findings that are obviously proven and valid.

That's why I've always kind of believed in God, or that there's at least some kind of higher power, but at the same time I've never been religious and welcome all scientific findings with open arms.

[jayswin]

^^^^^^^^^

BTW Does my post sound fanatical or too harsh? If it does, I'll edit it as I don't want to piss anyone off. Also, does anyone else share my wierd, hybrid type of view on this issue?

[evman150]

Anybody that needs to "turn to God" is a weak minded (or severely disadvantaged/suicidal) person deserving of disdain and disrespect (or pity).

Really, religion is a way of tricking the selection process. People with ****ty lives might have killed themselves in the past, without religion. Now they turn to "God" and propogate more ****ty existences. Great for the species.

I cannot say whether there is something out there that started everything, I am not able to answer that question, nor is anyone else. I can say though, that there is (invoking the limit concept) zero chance the Judeo-Christian "God" and the Bible are truths.

[Igottago]

Originally Posted by evman150

Anybody that needs to "turn to God" is a weak minded (or severely disadvantaged/suicidal) person deserving of disdain and disrespect (or pity).

Really, religion is a way of tricking the selection process. People with ****ty lives might have killed themselves in the past, without religion. Now they turn to "God" and propogate more ****ty existences. Great for the species.

I cannot say whether there is something out there that started everything, I am not able to answer that question, nor is anyone else. I can say though, that there is (invoking the limit concept) zero chance the Judeo-Christian "God" and the Bible are truths.

God forbid you should ever need to believe in something "more" to get you through a difficult situation in life. We all experience pain and we don't always have "scientific" answers to all of our experiences. I'm not a religous man but I also don't think that guys in white labcoats can write me a complete manual to living.

[Five-hole]

Originally Posted by Igottago

God forbid you should ever need to believe in something "more" to get you through a difficult situation in life. We all experience pain and we don't always have "scientific" answers to all of our experiences. I'm not a religous man but I also don't think that guys in white labcoats can write me a complete manual to living.

You've been led astray by the Evangelical indoctrination movement if you think that scientists are trying to "write a complete manual to living".

[Lanny_MacDonald]

Originally Posted by Igottago

I'm not a religous man but I also don't think that guys in white labcoats can write me a complete manual to living.

And religion can?

Here's what makes me laugh about the whole religion thing. Religious people put their "faith" in "God" because they "need" to know that someone/something has all the answers, giving them a false sense of control in their lives. They discount science as being false because it "doesn't" have all the answers. Well, science isn't about "having" the answers, its about "finding" the answers.

Science doesn't have all the answers, but science is about the continual challenge of discovery and understanding. Science is about finding consistencies that explain those things that we don't understand. There is no "faith" involved as results are repeatable and consistent. The biggest part of science that I find so attractive is that we can admit we don't have to know all the answers and that we are a work in progress. We were not created in anyone's particular likeliness and are fallible beings who make mistakes, but learn from them. No grand leaps of faith required. No omnipotent being to guide the way. Some may argue that sounds like an "empty" existence (I've heard this argument a lot), but is having an imaginary friend/super being any less "empty"?

[Displaced Flames fan]

Originally Posted by RougeUnderoos

The original post is about defending the story of the ark, so the ark is relevant to this discussion.

"Creation", like the words "aloha" and "dude", is pretty tough to define. It means different things to different people. If the ark, to you, is irrelevant to the creation story, you must have a different version of creation than someone who argues that the ark and all them animals actually happened.

Well, the ark was used in direct response to something I posted....which had nothing to do with the ark.

I'm not necessarily a believer but I don't summarily dismiss the possibility of something like creation or some other genesis that we can't comprehend simply because there is no scientific evidence. Humans, I believe, haven't got all the answers to the universe yet. I think it's foolish to think we can comprehend everything.

And yeah, a literal translation of the bible isn't the way I would go if I chose to believe the whole Christian theory of why we are here. In fact, being brought up in an atmosphere that involved a heavy dose of church as a child, I wasn't taught to take the bible literally either.

I've always believed it is quite easy to reconcile evolution and creation(or some other unknown genesis) as coexistors. It's those that summarily dismiss one or the other that I have a problem with...and that's LOTS of folks dude. Aloha!

[Flames in 07]

Originally Posted by flameswin

I always struggle to understand where I sit on this issue. On one hand I believe that the bible shouldn't be picked apart scientifically, as I don't feel that the bible should be taken so literally. But then I see videos like the one posted in this thread, and I feel sick to stomach seeing those kids being indoctrinated like that.

As a mature adult (22 years old), evolution is just so much more fascinating to me, and obviously more realistic, and I find it really shocking the number of Americans who truley believe that stuff, to the point where a lot of them literally sound like drugged zombies who have been programed to repeat things that I think deep down, they don't even believe are true.

But what makes me sit more on the fence than I should is that I believe the bible and religion have a lot to offer to the world, it's just the people in charge seem to put the focus on the wrong things......

I think the real beauty of religion is when someone has nowhere to turn and feels hopeless, but then turns to "god" and starts to find hope. Or wen someone needs to feel like there's a higher power, or a meaning for them being alive, and they find that meaning in god. It seems that people seem more focused on "calling out" other religions and beliefs and trying to convert the whole world to the "right" religion, instead of focusing on being open and helping the people that truley need help.

If there is a god, I wonder if he looks down on us and thinks the way people are handling religion isn't the way he intended it to be handled. I believe that the bible and god should be interpreted differently by different people and that's the beauty of it. I believe that people that read the bible should take what they want from it and kind of use it as a guide to help them be a better person, and as something to fall back on when times are tough, rather than taking their religion so literally that they sound like 5 year old children trying to dispell scientific findings that are obviously proven and valid.

That's why I've always kind of believed in God, or that there's at least some kind of higher power, but at the same time I've never been religious and welcome all scientific findings with open arms.

Totally agree.

All religion is, is a function that serves human need to form groups and in some cases manipulate 'things' beliefs, society, kids, whatever.

Religion is the best example going of group think. When people get together at say a hockey game they build a confidence that they would never have if they were alone. They would say things they otherwise would not and behave in ways they otherwise would not. Same as religion.

Many people take away from religion that they should be nice, be selfless and not cheat on their wife. That's fine. For me personally you don't need religion for that, just a general maturity. But it's people like in that file on page #1 that makes me believe religion has a net negative impact on society.

[Flames in 07]

Originally Posted by Displaced Flames fan

Well, the ark was used in direct response to something I posted....which had nothing to do with the ark.

I'm not necessarily a believer but I don't summarily dismiss the possibility of something like creation or some other genesis that we can't comprehend simply because there is no scientific evidence. Humans, I believe, haven't got all the answers to the universe yet. I think it's foolish to think we can comprehend everything.

And yeah, a literal translation of the bible isn't the way I would go if I chose to believe the whole Christian theory of why we are here. In fact, being brought up in an atmosphere that involved a heavy dose of church as a child, I wasn't taught to take the bible literally either.

I've always believed it is quite easy to reconcile evolution and creation(or some other unknown genesis) as coexistors. It's those that summarily dismiss one or the other that I have a problem with...and that's LOTS of folks dude. Aloha!

To me, and clearly a few others, creation equals belief in the ark story. If for you it doesn't then ok nbd.

[CaramonLS]

Originally Posted by evman150

Anybody that needs to "turn to God" is a weak minded (or severely disadvantaged/suicidal) person deserving of disdain and disrespect (or pity).

Really, religion is a way of tricking the selection process. People with ****ty lives might have killed themselves in the past, without religion. Now they turn to "God" and propogate more ****ty existences. Great for the species.

I cannot say whether there is something out there that started everything, I am not able to answer that question, nor is anyone else. I can say though, that there is (invoking the limit concept) zero chance the Judeo-Christian "God" and the Bible are truths.

People have always turned to religion though, supernatural belief is laden in every single culture in the world. It is a way to rationalizing thought and putting ourselves into equilibrium. I don't think it is really for those who are "weak minded", because you do the exact same thing in some ways with science, believing that it will help find all the answers to the questions in the universe given enough time, eventually.

I am not religious, but I do agree it crosses the line when it begins affecting all of us (see Rouge's post) and the way I live my life.

[Flashpoint]

My only problem with religion (creationism, the ark story, etc) is that it is an institutionalized lie.

When the crazy dude in the cardboard box scrawls “the Easter Bunny is coming – REPENT!”, he is looked upon with a combination of pity and distain. Because it is clear he is deluded. Nobody believes his lies.

When a crazy dude in a robe screams “if you are attracted to people of the same sex – REPENT”, from the pulpit, people nod their heads and push their kids closer.

Lame.

Atheism is the only way to go. It really puts a lot of control in your life. You can stop blaming higher powers for your failures and successes.

[Cowperson]

I think if we could do a survey of global attitudes on religion, questioning the most ignorant of savages to the most highly educated bon vivants (perhaps savages as well) in skyscrapers, that we would find the ovewhelming majority believe in some equivalent of the Ark, an afterlife, etc . . . and a distinct minority believing in things like evolution.

There's even been studies done to see if human's are pyschologically "hard-wired" to believe in some form of God or God's.

I wouldn't say its anything specific to America . . . . . but America is unusual among wealthy nations as revealed in this Pew article on how important religion is among the populations of various countries.

http://pewglobal.org/reports/display.php?ReportID=167

Specifically, in America, a recent Pew Poll found:

The American people have never fully embraced evolution, which is not surprising given the religious nature of the country. According to an August 2006 poll by the Pew Forum on Religion & Public Life, 42% of all adults, and 65% of white evangelicals, say that humans and other living things have existed in present form only. In other words, life did not evolve, but was created in its present state.

Moreover, among the 51% who say that they accept some sort of evolution, 21% say that these changes were guided by a supreme being. Only 26% accept the idea that life evolved through natural selection, as Darwin and his successors have argued. And while substantial majorities of most religious denominations say that scientists agree about evolution, only a minority (43%) of white evangelicals subscribe to that view.

Cowperson

[peter12]

Originally Posted by evman150

Anybody that needs to "turn to God" is a weak minded (or severely disadvantaged/suicidal) person deserving of disdain and disrespect (or pity).

Really, religion is a way of tricking the selection process. People with ****ty lives might have killed themselves in the past, without religion. Now they turn to "God" and propogate more ****ty existences. Great for the species.

I cannot say whether there is something out there that started everything, I am not able to answer that question, nor is anyone else. I can say though, that there is (invoking the limit concept) zero chance the Judeo-Christian "God" and the Bible are truths.

You propose a fundamentally flawed version of evolution. Before you get after religion, maybe make sure you know your science.

[Byrns]

Refresh my memory... Where do the anti-creationists believe the universe came from again?

Why do atheists care so much about what Christians (or any other religions) believe?

[MarchHare]

Refresh my memory... Where do the anti-creationists believe the universe came from again?

The best scientific theory on the origin of the universe is the big bang theory. Although it's been nearly a decade since I took an undergrad class in astrophysics, the gist of the theory is that the universe began between 12 and 16 billion years ago as an infinitely small ball of matter and energy and very rapidly expanded to what it is today. Of course nobody knows what caused the big bang to occur or what (if anything) existed prior to the big bang, but unlike religion, scientific theories don't invoke the power of magical space pixies in order to explain that which is unknown; it's just accepted as something which requires further study.

Also, the term isn't "anti-creationist". We prefer either to be called atheists, agnostics, or non-believers.

Why do atheists care so much about what Christians (or any other religions) believe?

I don't think any atheist cares what a Christian believes in the privacy of his or her home or church. We only take issue when Christians attempt to legislate their particular brand of morality into law and try to have their beliefs taught in public schools.

[Burninator]

Originally Posted by Byrns

Refresh my memory... Where do the anti-creationists believe the universe came from again?

Anti-creationist isn't really a term, well I've never heard it before. But the predominate theory would be the Big Bang.

Why do atheists care so much about what Christians (or any other religions) believe?

For the post part atheists don't care what you believe. However atheists do care when Christians (or other religions) force their beliefs onto other people. Specifically in this case, teaching creationism in school as a science, when in actuality it is hardly a science.

EDIT: Looks like MarchHare beat me too it, but apparently we agree.

[Textcritic]

Originally Posted by Byrns

Refresh my memory... Where do the anti-creationists believe the universe came from again?

Why do atheists care so much about what Christians (or any other religions) believe?

Let us be very clear that "creationism" is very distrinct from "Christianity". While there are a good number of Christians who do subscribe to creationism, the vast majority of Christians—present company included—are convinced that this feable attempt through pseudo-science which seeks to promote the doctrine of biblical inerrency is utter nonsense.

Furthermore, let us also clarify that there is a difference between those of us who believe in "creation", and "creationism". The former presupposes a belief in some sort of higher power, through whom all things came to exist. It is a vague and really a very loosely defined term. All creationists believe in creation, but the latter group believes that creation was a "magical" act that can be prooved scientifically; that the biblical creation myths ought be treated scientifically; that every question which seeks an answer ought be answered with "God did it", and that everything from science which casts even the slightest doubt on the historical and scientific veracity of the Bible must be false.

Creationism is a tool for promoting the ridiculous 200-year-old doctrine of biblical inerrency and infallibility. Creationism's only function is to justify a literal or so-called "plain reading" of the entire Protestant Bible.

[Byrns]

My point is that atheists, agnostics, or non-believers seem to spend a whole lot of energy and time protesting, arguing, and belittling those who don't share the same views on the origins of the universe. Go ahead attack Falwell, but just because someone believes in a higher power doesn't make them stupid or weak minded. I'm sure that there many, many Christians (Jews, Muslims, hindus, etc.) that are smarter, richer, and wiser than many the organised religion "haters".

Question #2. Why do atheists, agnostics, or non-believers have such a problem of someone opening a muesum based on the bible?

* I personally agree that ideals of the creation "theory" should not be taught at public schools.

[MarchHare]

My point is that atheists, agnostics, or non-believers seem to spend a whole lot of energy and time protesting, arguing, and belittling those who don't share the same views on the origins of the universe.

I can assure you that the amount of energy evangelical Christians spend trying to convert non-believers and lobbying governments to legislate their views is significantly greater than the amount of time athiests spend arguing the other way.

The overwhelming majority of atheists would be perfectly content if Christians kept their beliefs to themselves and didn't attempt to alter the law to confirm with Christian doctrine. Unfortunately, that isn't the case, so it's only natural that there would be a backlash by those who do not believe in a higher power.

Question #2. Why do atheists, agnostics, or non-believers have such a problem of someone opening a muesum based on the bible?

Was the museum built with any public funds, or strictly private money? Will students from public schools be taken on field trips to this museum?

If the answer to both of those questions is 'no', then once again I don't think any non-believer would have a problem with the construction and operation of this museum. The only exception to that would be if the museum states its exhibits are scientific in nature, when clearly they are not.

[Edit]
As difficult as this may be for you to believe, atheists, by and large, have a "live and let live" approach when it comes to sharing their views. I don't care one iota if you believe in God, or Allah, or Shiva, or the Flying Spaghetti Monster, so long as you keep your beliefs private and separate from our secular government and public education system. Non-believers only get up in arms when Christians attempt to encroach on their views. Keep your religion out of the public sphere, and you'll see next to zero "protesting, arguing, and belittling" from atheists.

[BlackEleven]

Originally Posted by Byrns

My point is that atheists, agnostics, or non-believers seem to spend a whole lot of energy and time protesting, arguing, and belittling those who don't share the same views on the origins of the universe. Go ahead attack Falwell, but just because someone believes in a higher power doesn't make them stupid or weak minded. I'm sure that there many, many Christians (Jews, Muslims, hindus, etc.) that are smarter, richer, and wiser than many the organised religion "haters".

Question #2. Why do atheists, agnostics, or non-believers have such a problem of someone opening a muesum based on the bible?

* I personally agree that ideals of the creation "theory" should not be taught at public schools.

It's not the belief in God here that is being attacked, at least by most people. Its the belief that some guy sailed around in a wooded boat for 40 days feeding sheep to dinosaurs, like in the originally posted article. I think we can all agree this is pretty absurd.

It is the fact that a rational human being could believe such a thing actually took place that is being attacked. Such beliefs are not only stupid, they're dangerous. If you can convince a person of this story using religion as the justification, then you can convince that person of almost anything, including thoughts like homosexuals and doctors who perform aboritions deserve to die. It's this kind of thinking that alarms some people, and that's what they fight against.

Its unfortunatly ironic that virtually every religion out there preaches tolerance and love at the core of the religion, yet people do horrible things to each other in the name of their religion because people, like Falwell, are able to twist their beliefs into something else.