Canadian Federal Politics Thread v5

[opendoor]

Originally Posted by ikaris

This is hilariously distorted as it doesn't show the current Trudeau's damage over the last five years.

Debt-to-GDP has increased by 17% in the last 5 years. That doesn't seem particularly egregious. Particularly given that it increased by 30% under Harper over a similar timeline (2 years before crisis and 3 years during/after).

[iggy_oi]

Originally Posted by Firebot

Is there a reason why the graph doesn't show Justin Trudeau when he has been at the helm for 7 years now? No one is speaking of Pierre Trudeau, and I see no one singing Mulroney's laurels here (quite the opposite in fact). We are also going quite far in the past there where a different economic world existed.

The dude who marchhare was responding to literally brought up both of them in the post he quoted in his response that you then quoted and inexplicably tried to use as a springboard to complain that nobody had brought either of them up.

Surely you can park your obsession with JT for a moment to at least acknowledge that much?

And before you go quoting the movie Airplane, I’ll call you Shirley if I feel like it, Shirley!

[MarchHare]

Originally Posted by Firebot

Is there a reason why the graph doesn't show Justin Trudeau when he has been at the helm for 7 years now?

There may be newer graphs out there, but these were to top hits that came up from my Google searches for this info. Also, I'm willing to give debt incurred as a response to the pandemic a bit of a pass since COVID was the biggest international crisis since WWII and all governments everywhere were spending like crazy to prevent a total collapse of a functional society. In an alternate universe where Harper was PM at the time and took the same actions, I wouldn't be critical of that either.

No one is speaking of Pierre Trudeau, and I see no one singing Mulroney's laurels here (quite the opposite in fact). We are also going quite far in the past there where a different economic world existed.

The person I was responding to, and whose post I quoted, referenced Pierre Trudeau and mentioned how Conservatives had to come in to clean up messes left by previous Liberal governments.

Of course, Justin Trudeau's numbers need to be taken with an asterix considering covid had a bigger short term financial impact than 2008. But even accounting with covid, Trudeau's spending and growing of government is abnormal.

Not really. See opendoor's post above about Debt:GDP ratio.

[Firebot]

Originally Posted by iggy_oi

The dude who marchhare was responding to literally brought up both of them in the post he quoted in his response that you then quoted and inexplicably tried to use as a springboard to complain that nobody had brought either of them up.

Surely you can park your obsession with JT for a moment to at least acknowledge that much?

And before you go quoting the movie Airplane, I’ll call you Shirley if I feel like it, Shirley!

Touche. I misread Cowboy's 89 post.

Going back to Pierre Trudeau, Mulroney days to score political points 30-40 years later seems to be quite stale which is my point (both sides of the argument). Even Chretien-Martin is starting to become 'in my day' stale. I would rather look at current ongoing versus what a government in a completely different world did 40 years ago.

There are graph's showing the newer numbers that seem more relevant than debating who was worse Pierre Trudeau or Brian Mulroney.

[Firebot]

Originally Posted by MarchHare

Not really. See opendoor's post above about Debt:GDP ratio.

See my linked CBC article.

[BlackArcher101]

Originally Posted by Firebot

See my linked CBC article.

I'll take "Things I thought I'd never see Firebot say" for $500 Alex.

[Firebot]

Originally Posted by MarchHare

There may be newer graphs out there, but these were to top hits that came up from my Google searches for this info. Also, I'm willing to give debt incurred as a response to the pandemic a bit of a pass since COVID was the biggest international crisis since WWII and all governments everywhere were spending like crazy to prevent a total collapse of a functional society. In an alternate universe where Harper was PM at the time and took the same actions, I wouldn't be critical of that either.

They are top hits, because they are regurgitated 2015 graphs that were created pre-election and continues to be shared on platforms like reddit and twitter as a counter to conservatives being 'fiscally responsible'. There are newer charts, but they are only done by Fraser Institute which immediately gets called in question as biased (yet we continue to circulate a 2015 graph).

Harper governed under the biggest credit crisis since the great depression where the banking system was in danger of collapsing.

There's Asterix for spending that both Harper and Trudeau have required to undertake (and these spending habits have been.

If you are going to give Trudeau a pass due to covid (as he should), Harper does as well for a few years, but only for amounts relating to both crisis. Trudeau's spending was an issue before covid (and the past 2 years).

[Firebot]

Originally Posted by BlackArcher101

I'll take "Things I thought I'd never see Firebot say" for $500 Alex.

I refer to CBC articles for many of my posts and have commanded CBC on many occasions where they did a good reporting job. My voting record includes voting for Trudeau. Your own political bias is why you think I have a bias.

[BlackArcher101]

Originally Posted by Firebot

I refer to CBC articles for many of my posts and have commanded CBC on many occasions where they did a good reporting job. My voting record includes voting for Trudeau. Your own political bias is why you think I have a bias.

Ah sorry, you are totally right. Had you mixed up with Azure/Yoho and others.

[iggy_oi]

Originally Posted by Firebot

Touche. I misread Cowboy's 89 post.

Going back to Pierre Trudeau, Mulroney days to score political points 30-40 years later seems to be quite stale which is my point (both sides of the argument). Even Chretien-Martin is starting to become 'in my day' stale. I would rather look at current ongoing versus what a government in a completely different world did 40 years ago.

There are graph's showing the newer numbers that seem more relevant than debating who was worse Pierre Trudeau or Brian Mulroney.

Yeah I don’t disagree with you, although the graphs do certainly help refute the conservative government always good and liberal government always bad or the conservative government always bad and liberal government always good arguments around fiscal policies, especially debt. It’s pretty clear that neither have a great record, which is why I try to focus more of my attention on their other policies which are generally more impactful on peoples lives.

I’ve got to say I think we’re in a pretty tough spot here as a country because the current government have proven to not have much of a plan going forward meanwhile the opposition who are likely to make large gains in seats haven’t given us any indication that they have a plan beyond blaming everything wrong on Trudeau.

[Firebot]

Poilievre isn't going to be a miracle worker once he is likely to be in power, and the balancing the budget isn't going to happen under his watch. He's already pre-emptively used the "once we see the real numbers" spiel to ensure we will be deficit spending.

I've never used the "conservative government" good and "liberal government" bad spiel as the records sure as heck don't show it, but I most certainly can say "Trudeau government" bad, and "Harper government" less bad. We just have to see what the Poilievre government would do, but right now, it's pretty bad.

[Yoho]

https://twitter.com/user/status/1727087233654731058

Can always count on the NDP to defend the liberals.

[opendoor]

Originally Posted by Firebot

Is there a reason why the graph doesn't show Justin Trudeau when he has been at the helm for 8 years now? No one is speaking of Pierre Trudeau, and I see no one singing Mulroney's laurels here (quite the opposite in fact). We are also going quite far in the past there where a different economic world existed.

Harper's numbers showed declining numbers similar to Chretien / Martin prior to the credit crash, but definitely the CPC has to share to blame for lowering the GST and spending. Canada while Harper was in power also practiced quantitative easing (which benefits are still dubious).

Of course, Justin Trudeau's numbers need to be taken with an asterix considering covid had a bigger short term financial impact than 2008. But even accounting with covid, Trudeau's spending and growing of government is abnormal.

You are quite correct that the Chretien / Martin governments were the most financially responsible (and one I voted for), but this isn't who is at the helm the past 8 years.

https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/cos...year-1.6797486

Look at it terms of GDP though. Comparing growth in government to the inflation rate doesn't make a lot of sense if the population and economy grow faster. You can have a significant growth in those things (which requires larger government to maintain the same level of service) with low inflation.

So in terms of GDP, in nominal terms it has grown over 40% since 2015 vs. the CPI which is up 24%. And if you look at that chart about 1/3rd the way down the article "program expenses as a % of GDP), the current ~16% isn't far off the historical average of 14-15%. And that's with significant new investments in childcare.

For all the faults of these idiots, their budgetary results are at worst basically indistinguishable from any other government in the last 40-50 years other than Chretien's.

[aaronck]

Originally Posted by Yoho

https://twitter.com/user/status/1727087233654731058

Can always count on the NDP to defend the liberals.

Can always count on Yoho to quote Rebel/ Keanan/ CPC/ RW Opinion pieces as "facts"

[Yoho]

Originally Posted by aaronck

Can always count on Yoho to quote Rebel/ Keanan/ CPC/ RW Opinion pieces as "facts"

Lol argue with video footage of question period.
“Cause I don’t like him”

[Wormius]

Originally Posted by Yoho

Lol argue with video footage of question period.
“Cause I don’t like him”

If you can’t find a source other than that, maybe don’t post it.

[Firebot]

Originally Posted by opendoor

So in terms of GDP, in nominal terms it has grown over 40% since 2015 vs. the CPI which is up 24%. And if you look at that chart about 1/3rd the way down the article "program expenses as a % of GDP), the current ~16% isn't far off the historical average of 14-15%. And that's with significant new investments in childcare.

16% of GDP is a huge difference from a 14-15% historical number when we are talking trillions. We are at 2.08 trillion dollars GDP, even a 1% of GDP difference in program expenses equals to a 20 billion dollar increase above historical government norm if using the same amount of GDP.

Our fall updated forecast just came in at 40$ billion deficit, this means half of that deficit is due to well above average government program spending specifically as a result of a Trudeau led government. And this is the rosy Liberal projected number.

https://www.ctvnews.ca/politics/bill...20billion%20in

And speaking of numbers where are you getting 14-15% from? The quote is?

said Khan, pointing to previous governments that kept spending in the 12-13 per cent range of GDP.

You are downplaying and skewing the numbers. Even at peak of the 2008-2009 credit crisis Harper's government spending maxed out at 15.9%, higher than the current 2023 numbers. By 2015 Harper was down to 12.8%.

Looking at it in terms of GDP makes it worse.

[chemgear]

Originally Posted by Firebot

Poilievre isn't going to be a miracle worker once he is likely to be in power, and the balancing the budget isn't going to happen under his watch.

But I thought budgets balance themselves?

[CorsiHockeyLeague]

Originally Posted by Wormius

If you can’t find a source other than that, maybe don’t post it.

Wait... are you suggesting the footage was edited or taken out of context? Or... what is your concern? I don't think the source particularly matters for something like unaltered footage directly from the HOC.

[Johnny Makarov]

Originally Posted by Yoho

Fair enough but it wasn’t like other parties were not sounding the alarm earlier. This was from 2020.

https://twitter.com/user/status/1324522098082127872

Speaking of this numbnut, I was listening to 660CFR and Mr. SmarmAss was saying that in Scotland you can buy a 12 room mansion for the same price as a 2 bedroom condo in Kingston, ON.

Well get your ass out of here and move to Scotland loser! lol