[News] LeBrun/Dreger - Flames open for Business

[Fourteen FTW]

Ps. I just ate a whopper at a rest stop off the 401. Thanks for the dinner chat while my car charged. JP out. Go Flames! Go top draft picks!

[Jay Random]

Originally Posted by mrdonkey

I think you’re the one who doesn’t understand. You might want to do some reading on necessary and sufficient conditions.

I understand perfectly, thank you very much.

If you can do X without meeting condition Y, then Y is not a necessary condition for X.

If you can meet condition Y and still fail to do X, then Y is not a sufficient condition for X.

Teams have won the Stanley Cup in the cap era without drafting in the top 2. Therefore, drafting in the top 2 is not a necessary condition for winning the Cup.

Teams have FAILED to win the Stanley Cup in the cap era when they DID draft in the top 2. Therefore, drafting in the top 2 is not a sufficient condition for winning the Cup.

Have I made some mistake in either of those last two statements? No, I have not. If you think I don't understand the terminology, that is YOUR failure of understanding, not mine.

[TrentCrimmIndependent]

Wtf? ^

Relax guys.

[Jason14h]

Originally Posted by Jay Random

WRONG WRONG WRONG WRONG JESUS H. FLIPPING CHRIST!!!!!

Pittsburgh won the Cup with FOUR, count 'em, FOUR top-two picks on their roster. There is no goddam rule that a team can only have one top-two pick! Therefore, it is not impossible for EVERY top-two pick to be on a winning roster, whether they ever change teams or not. IT JUST DOES NOT HAPPEN.

And you have not established ANY correlation, because you have TOTALLY FAILED TO EXAMINE THE NULL HYPOTHESIS. Learn some statistics!

Technically is 3 teams rotated 1st overall , 2nd overall , and then winning the cup over and over so only 3 (or a very very small number of teams ever drafted 1 and 2 ) it could mathematically happen

Although the new lottery rules probably make it as close to statistically
Impossible as it could get .

[Fourteen FTW]

Originally Posted by TrentCrimmIndependent

Wtf? ^

Relax guys.

It’s fun because convincing each other has ZERO impact on the teams outcome.

[flamesgod]

Originally Posted by Spurs

They shouldn't.

But how far back are we going to go? That Detroit Red Wings team was built in an NHL that is much different from what we have now. The core of Datsyuk, Lidstrom, Zetterberg was drafted at a time when teams did not do the same level of scouting in Europe as they did now. Do you think it is likely or even possible a team is getting that level of players now?

There will always be players picked in later rounds, who turn out to be gems. It’s why teams like Edmonton spin their wheels and teams like Tampa win cups. You need steals, you also increase your odds with picking 1st and 2nd overall. You need them both equally imo. Vegas has Marchessault, Tampa has Kucherov.

[Jason14h]

Originally Posted by Fourteen FTW

@spurs - you state “ you can't find a team that won without a top 5 pick they made on their team.”

How many teams that lost have at least one top 5 pick they picked?

You may be able to prove its likely you need one to win. It is unlikely you prove having one does anything to stop you from losing.

I did the math over the 15 year period from 2003-2018 previously

40% of 1st overall players and 53% of 2nd have won a cup

Pretty damn good odds

[Jay Random]

Originally Posted by Spurs

More flat out lies.

Can you make a post without completely making #### up.

Many many MANY times, you have been asked how many teams that meet your arbitrary criteria do NOT win the Cup. You have never answered or even acknowledged that question!

THAT IS NOT A LIE!!!!!!

Good God, you're annoying.

[Jason14h]

Edit - Dupe Post

[Spurs]

Originally Posted by Jay Random

No, but the team that won without the cap had been dismantled to be compliant. You don't just get to dismiss it as if it didn't count.]

Again explaining it isn't dismissing it.

It is if you are trying to state a rule.

Wrong again

Now do St. Louis.

St. Louis drafted Pietrangelo

NOBODY IS TALKING ABOUT THE GODDAMN FLAMES HERE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

On a Flames message board, in a Flames thread, with people talking about whether the team should rebuild, retool, recycle, reboot nobody is talking about the Flames? LOL

They have had – Bennett. They never won with him.

Nobody has said having a top 3 pick is a guarantee.

Every single team has been in that position. Most of them did not win anything while they were in that position.

Yes, nobody has said it is a top 5 pick and then Stanley Cup.

No, it's me seeing a connection that you don't grasp.

No it is you making up things that were never said.

As opposed to basing your argument on a vote by scouts cast when the players were 18 years old and had never played a pro game?

LOL sure the draft is a vote and the argument I am posting has shown to be true.

[Spurs]

Originally Posted by Jay Random

Many many MANY times, you have been asked how many teams that meet your arbitrary criteria do NOT win the Cup. You have never answered or even acknowledged that question!

THAT IS NOT A LIE!!!!!!

Good God, you're annoying.

I haven't been asked that many times at all, again a lie.

I also addressed the point in a reply to someone above.

All you have to do is read what is actually posted not what you want to see.

[Spurs]

Originally Posted by flamesgod

There will always be players picked in later rounds, who turn out to be gems. It’s why teams like Edmonton spin their wheels and teams like Tampa win cups. You need steals, you also increase your odds with picking 1st and 2nd overall. You need them both equally imo. Vegas has Marchessault, Tampa has Kucherov.

Has anyone said anything different?

[kyuss275]

Wtf did I just scroll through on the last 3 pages?

[Spurs]

Originally Posted by Fourteen FTW

@spurs - you state “ you can't find a team that won without a top 5 pick they made on their team.”

How many teams that lost have at least one top 5 pick they picked?

You may be able to prove its likely you need one to win. It is unlikely you prove having one does anything to stop you from losing.

I never claimed that a top 5 pick equals automatic success. Why would I want to prove something that I don't believe.

[Jay Random]

Originally Posted by Jason14h

Technically is 3 teams rotated 1st overall , 2nd overall , and then winning the cup over and over so only 3 (or a very very small number of teams ever drafted 1 and 2 ) it could mathematically happen

Although the new lottery rules probably make it as close to statistically
Impossible as it could get .

WRONG AGAIN.

There are MANY ways that it could happen, because careers do not just last for a couple of years.

All that is needed is, on average, for two new top-2 picks to win the Stanley Cup each season. When the Penguins won their first, they knocked four names off the list at once. If you are counting on a long period of tanking to accumulate many top picks, you should expect this sort of thing to happen. And if that were a reliable way of building a championship team, it would happen more often than it does. But it doesn't.

[Jay Random]

Originally Posted by Spurs

I haven't been asked that many times at all, again a lie.

I have repeatedly put the question in this very thread. If you didn't think it was directed at you, that's your damned fault.

I also addressed the point in a reply to someone above.

Then please quote yourself. I did not see you answer it.

[flamesgod]

Originally Posted by Spurs

Has anyone said anything different?

Well, considering you asked if it’s possible to get players like Detroit had in later rounds? I’d say you did. It’s right in the quote.

[Fourteen FTW]

This is quickly becoming my favourite thread in a long, long time

[Fourteen FTW]

I think spurs is flip-flopping

[Spurs]

Originally Posted by flamesgod

Well, considering you asked if it’s possible to get players like Detroit had in later rounds? I’d say you did. It’s right in the quote.

I said if it is possible to get 3 players the quality that Detroit did.

That is the big difference. Getting a Gaudreau is certainly always possible but getting 3 Hall of Fame players in the 3rd, 6th and 7th rounds is probably not happening again.