Israel declares war on Hamas

[Lanny_McDonald]

Originally Posted by Language

Is everybody just ignoring the fact that Hamas...

These are terrorists, plain as day, and self admitted.

Maybe it's just you, but pretty well EVERYBODY has stated Hamas is a terrorist organization and needs to be eliminated. There is no argument here except ion the minds of those who see any comment against Israel as antisemitism and full-throated support for Hamas, which is total bull####. EVERYBODY in this thread has stated Hamas needs to wiped out. Some just believe that Israel has a different agenda and sees Hamas as a useful enemy to garner support for continual oppression of the Palestinians, continual land grabs in Palestinian areas, and a constant state of fear to keep Israeli citizens under the thumb of an oppressive RW regime. Yes, we need to eliminate Hamas, but we also need to eliminate the elements within the Israeli government that foment non-stop war and oppression against the innocent.

[Pointman]

And since everybody agrees that Hamas needs to be wiped out, the only criticism of what Israel is doing in Gaza is that it could do more to protect civilians. Which is very arbitrary and speculative. So all th argument is being moved onto either other places, like West Bank, or other times, like past and future. But the only argument against what Israel is doing in Gaza right now is that some people with no military experience sitting on their couches believe that Israel could do more to protect civilians of an enemy country. When their own government clearly said that they will do nothing to protect them.

[PepsiFree]

Originally Posted by Lanny_McDonald

Maybe it's just you, but pretty well EVERYBODY has stated Hamas is a terrorist organization and needs to be eliminated. There is no argument here except ion the minds of those who see any comment against Israel as antisemitism and full-throated support for Hamas, which is total bull####. EVERYBODY in this thread has stated Hamas needs to wiped out. Some just believe that Israel has a different agenda and sees Hamas as a useful enemy to garner support for continual oppression of the Palestinians, continual land grabs in Palestinian areas, and a constant state of fear to keep Israeli citizens under the thumb of an oppressive RW regime. Yes, we need to eliminate Hamas, but we also need to eliminate the elements within the Israeli government that foment non-stop war and oppression against the innocent.

It’d be nice if people started quoting the position they’re arguing against when they argue things like “Hamas is a terrorist organization” or “Hamas needs to be wiped out.” This has been happening since the beginning of the thread, so I doubt it stops any time soon, but it has been happening by everyone so I have to assume anyone still bringing it up is doing it for the purposes of virtue signalling to everyone else that they too, in fact, oppose terrorism (congratulations).

That, or people are so desperate to avoid the civilian conversation that they resort to re-stating general truths about Hamas ad nauseam as a means of having to address the idea of Israel wiping out thousands of children and whether they need to kill quite so many.

[Flames Fan, Ph.D.]

Originally Posted by Pointman

I guess, I didn't make the point clear. Let's say, Israel agrees on ceasefire. Two hours later Hamas fires a rocket into Israel, thus obviously breaking ceasefire. Now what?

When President P. W. Botha offered Mandela his freedom if he renounced all violence as a political instrument. Mandela’s reply was “Let him renounce violence.

When Israel declares the ceasefire, will the land/sea/air embargo continue? Will settlers like the one Isaac Chotiner interviewed yesterday stop?

My point being that this overt violence using rockets is a symptom. You’re not addressing the root problem. Stopping a few bombs isn’t going to erase the memories of the impact of those bombs from either side. True reconciliation starts from joint acceptance that both sides deserve and are entitled to liberty and self-determination. Without that, you’ll see violence. And more, everyone must accept that rockets aren’t the only forms of violence…

[Pointman]

Originally Posted by Flames Fan, Ph.D.

When President P. W. Botha offered Mandela his freedom if he renounced all violence as a political instrument. Mandela’s reply was “Let him renounce violence.

When Israel declares the ceasefire, will the land/sea/air embargo continue? Will settlers like the one Isaac Chotiner interviewed yesterday stop?

My point being that this overt violence using rockets is a symptom. You’re not addressing the root problem. Stopping a few bombs isn’t going to erase the memories of the impact of those bombs from either side. True reconciliation starts from joint acceptance that both sides deserve and are entitled to liberty and self-determination. Without that, you’ll see violence. And more, everyone must accept that rockets aren’t the only forms of violence…

At this point we are wiping out Hamas. I can actually agree, that wiping of Hamas, though necessarily, will not address the root problem. But since I live in the country, that is currently at war, I focus on winning the war now and addressing other things later.

[Flames Fan, Ph.D.]

Originally Posted by Pointman

At this point we are wiping out Hamas. I can actually agree, that wiping of Hamas, though necessarily, will not address the root problem. But since I live in the country, that is currently at war, I focus on winning the war now and addressing other things later.

And the violence being used to wipe out Hamas will just... bring on more violence.

[Flames Fan, Ph.D.]

Here is Lord Balfour himself:

The weak point of our position of course is that in the case of Palestine we deliberately and rightly decline to accept the principle of self-determination. If the present inhabitants were consulted they would unquestionably give an anti-Jewish verdict. Our justification for our policy is that we regard Palestine as being absolutely exceptional; that we consider the question of the Jews outside Palestine as one of world importance, and that we conceive the Jews to have an historic claim to a home in their ancient land; provided that home can be given them without either dispossessing or oppressing the present inhabitants.

[Leondros]

Originally Posted by Pointman

At this point we are wiping out Hamas. I can actually agree, that wiping of Hamas, though necessarily, will not address the root problem. But since I live in the country, that is currently at war, I focus on winning the war now and addressing other things later.

Well enjoy the next war then I guess? Hopefully by that time your kids or their kids aren’t eligible for conscription like you were - and I mean that sincerely. The addressing other things later is the exact problem. Israel needs to address the problem now, they are creating tomorrow’s fighters.

You yourself said you want a two state system, that only will happen peacefully if civilian casualties are reduced, Hamas wiped out, and illegal settlement stopped. The prospect of that looks grim under your current leadership which also needs to be fixed.

[Bagor]

Originally Posted by Pointman

At this point we are wiping out Hamas. I can actually agree, that wiping of Hamas, though necessarily, will not address the root problem. But since I live in the country, that is currently at war, I focus on winning the war now and addressing other things later.

At this point you are also mass slaughtering children with no regard for the lives of innocents.

It's a view held across the world that Israel has at least equalled the evil and cruelty shown by Hamas on October 7th. That's the reality of where you're at and how you're viewed.

[Scroopy Noopers]

Originally Posted by Flames Fan, Ph.D.

And the violence being used to wipe out Hamas will just... bring on more violence.

No no, all the young people will see their friends and family wiped out and think “I guess we were wrong, I’ll change my ways”. There is no way it’ll just fuel more terrorism, that’s not something that’s been talked about for decades…

[blankall]

Originally Posted by Flames Fan, Ph.D.

When President P. W. Botha offered Mandela his freedom if he renounced all violence as a political instrument. Mandela’s reply was “Let him renounce violence.

When Israel declares the ceasefire, will the land/sea/air embargo continue? Will settlers like the one Isaac Chotiner interviewed yesterday stop?

My point being that this overt violence using rockets is a symptom. You’re not addressing the root problem. Stopping a few bombs isn’t going to erase the memories of the impact of those bombs from either side. True reconciliation starts from joint acceptance that both sides deserve and are entitled to liberty and self-determination. Without that, you’ll see violence. And more, everyone must accept that rockets aren’t the only forms of violence…

You have the order of things wrong.

Israel put the blockade up in direct response to rocket fire and Hamas. Hamas was elected after Israel had just withdrawn from the Gaza strip and was in the process of negotiating a Palestinian state in the West Bank.

Edit: it was also the loosening of the blockade that led directly to this attack. Israel had allowed 20,000 workers from Gaza into Israel for daily work. This is a huge part of the workforce given that half of Gazans are children. These workers gathered intelligence that allowed October 7 to happen.

Hamas only sees kindness as weakness. It's their goal to eliminate Israel. I'm not sure Israel can afford to just wait for the threat of Hamas to end itself.

[Leondros]

Originally Posted by Bagor

At this point you are also mass slaughtering children with no regard for the lives of innocents.

It's a view held across the world that Israel has at least equalled the evil and cruelty shown by Hamas on October 7th. That's the reality of where you're at and how you're viewed.

I wouldn’t go that far - dropping bombs is a lot less evil than what transpired on October the 7th… To suggest otherwise is asinine.

[Flames Fan, Ph.D.]

Originally Posted by blankall

You have the order of things wrong.

Ah yes, we're back to the 'but who dropped the first ever bomb' portion of our competition.



Maybe Lord Balfour dropped the first ever bomb by noting they had no intention of respecting some of the people who lived in the land.

[blankall]

Originally Posted by Scroopy Noopers

No no, all the young people will see their friends and family wiped out and think “I guess we were wrong, I’ll change my ways”. There is no way it’ll just fuel more terrorism, that’s not something that’s been talked about for decades…

Hamas also indoctrinates children from a very young age. If they remain, more terrorists will arise. Hamas is essentially a factory for making terrorists and they recieve billions of dollars from Iran to do it. While an over response from Israel is likely to fuel resentment, a lack of response would embolden Hamas, and the many other groups in the region.

Hamas' plan was to take the hostages and use them as leverage. If they'd been successful do people not think they would have tried that again?

I do think that Israel needs to cut back on the bombings. However, there are many in here implying or outright stating that Israel should not have removed Hamas militarily.

[Bagor]

Originally Posted by Leondros

I wouldn’t go that far - dropping bombs is a lot less evil than what transpired on October the 7th… To suggest otherwise is asinine.

Agree to disagree.
Like comparing a shooting and stabbing murder. They're both repulsive acts.

[blankall]

Originally Posted by Flames Fan, Ph.D.

Ah yes, we're back to the 'but who dropped the first ever bomb' portion of our competition.



Maybe Lord Balfour dropped the first ever bomb by noting they had no intention of respecting some of the people who lived in the land.

Except that Israel withdrew from the Gaza Strip, which was a huge first step. Then Israel loosened the blockade to allow 20,000 workers in. My argument wasn't about violence in response to violence. It was about violence in response to acts of peace.

Hamas has done everything they can to make the peace process impossible. Although it seems distant now, in 2006 we were incredibly close to a two state deal, with literally just a few percentages of land in the West Bank and what acceptable swaps would be at issue. Hamas immediately began a military campaign to end all negotiations. It's not about settlers in the West Bank for them. It's about the existence of Israel.

[Flames Fan, Ph.D.]

Originally Posted by blankall

Except that Israel withdrew from the Gaza Strip, which was a huge first step. Then Israel loosened the blockade to allow 20,000 workers in. My argument wasn't about violence in response to violence. It was about violence in response to acts of peace.

You have a very weird view about what constitute 'acts of peace'

[blankall]

Originally Posted by Flames Fan, Ph.D.

You have a very weird view about what constitute 'acts of peace'

Withdrawing from the Gaza Strip was not an act of peace?

[Flames Fan, Ph.D.]

Originally Posted by blankall

Withdrawing from the Gaza Strip was not an act of peace?

Nothing says peace like controlling someone's sea and air.


(I already know your knee-jerk response here, which is sad).

[blankall]

Originally Posted by Flames Fan, Ph.D.

Nothing says peace like controlling someone's sea and air.


(I already know your knee-jerk response here, which is sad).

The response is the fact that the blockade didn't come into being until after Hamas took control. Israel was also withdrawing in steps, as they feared increased militancy from the areas they withdrew from. At best, the argument is that both sides are in the wrong. The idea that violence is a response to Israel's policies is just wrong. Hamas specifically states over and over that violence is their response to Israel's existence.