Fan Unions

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by PaperBagger'14

If that were true, wouldn’t the owners try to build a championship team? The flames seem to operate on a “make the playoffs and anything can happen”, which isn’t a very champion style mindset.

Interestingly of the top 7 most valuable franchises, only 1 would be considered a “championship” team, while 3 would fall in a middling category and the last 3 are down right terrible.

The Dallas Stars actually dropped from 14th most valuable to 20th despite having a decent amount of on ice success in the playoffs recently.

https://ca.sports.yahoo.com/news/ave...200136548.html

Thing is, as far as winning relates to value, there are three categories: Championship team (only one of those), PO teams (half the league), non PO teams the other half. PO teams make more money than non-PO teams (some claim that POs are the profit margin for teams).

[Monahammer]

Originally Posted by Bingo

And if he sells it for a huge profit soon then yeah that would be the case.

If he doesn't though he risks the value going away and may not be in it for franchise value.

There's a vanity element that can't be ignored too.

That's not the only way you can derive money out of capital gains in an ownership position. No doubt the owners have benefitted substantially from the value of the franchise increasing so dramatically over the last 20 years.

Agreed that there's a vanity or club like element to owning a sports franchise, too.

Highly doubtful we see the value drop away. Especially considering the new arena deal, which historically has greatly bolstered franchise valuation.

[dino7c]

Originally Posted by Icantwhisper

Disagree, what did Edwards pay for the team vs current value.
May not be the year over year balance sheet of revenue vs expenses, but team value is where they make their money.

If he sells it?

also he bought the Flames in the early 80s...again there were many less stressful investments that would do much better that he could realistically liquidate. I mean if it was all about money he would probably be looking to sell.

[The Yen Man]

Originally Posted by PaperBagger'14

I would have to disagree with this belief entirely. The fans want to win, the owners want as much money as possible by whatever means necessary. If the flames lost every game last year but landed Bedard (and the windfall of cash that comes along with him), I highly doubt ownership would care at all.

Owners want to make money. But to make more money, they need to win. Hence, owners want to win. Is there something I'm missing?

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by Monahammer

Oh? What other type of investment has more than 5x value over the last 13 years?

Forbes 2010 value of NHL franchises: https://www.forbes.com/2010/11/30/le...h=6f12177a5553

2023 values:
https://www.sportico.com/feature/nhl...st-1234693065/

Using our principal owner as an example, the value of his main corporate holding (CNRL) has only gone up ~2.5x it's share price while dealing with much more stressful and concerning problems (rise of shale competition, landlocked supply, etc.)

There is no way you can say that the sports franchise has been more stressful or time consuming than running CNRL, and as far as investments go it seems to be performing exceptionally well. Did they get rich from ownership of hockey clubs? No. But it has made them much more wealthy.

Current ownership group interests began around 1981, when the team was purchased from Skalbania by a group including Harley Hotchkiss for $16 million. So, 16 million to ~1.14 billion over 22 years.

Franchise value is only relevant when you sell, though. Until he sells, the money the owners make is all net revenues. That's where PO v non PO comes in.

[Monahammer]

Show me another investment that's grown from $16 million to over a billion since 1981. I look forward to understanding.

[White Out 403]

wont someone please think of the billionaire owners who've seen ungodly rates of return on these teams

[GomerPile]

Originally Posted by White Out 403

wont someone please think of the billionaire owners who've seen ungodly rates of return on these teams

It would be worth approximately 2.2 Billion if the ownership group would have invested in Apple stock on the IPO. Im glad they chose the Flames.

https://www.fool.com/investing/2022/...-how-much-now/

[Monahammer]

Originally Posted by GomerPile

It would be worth approximately 2.2 Billion if the ownership group would have invested in Apple stock on the IPO. Im glad they chose the Flames.

https://www.fool.com/investing/2022/...-how-much-now/

Cool this is a good example, because IMO you've identified one of the OG meme stock runs that people always joke about wishing they had hit. So you're comparing ownership of a sports franchise (and ours is pretty pedestrian, at that) to hitting on one of the best stocks of all time.

[Monahammer]

Originally Posted by White Out 403

wont someone please think of the billionaire owners who've seen ungodly rates of return on these teams

Albertans generally don't even favor unions for way more important things, like their own workplaces. I am not sure why you thought this idea would hold water. Plus, I think most hockey fans don't want to think of themselves as similar to football hooligans, where these fan unions come from.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by White Out 403

wont someone please think of the billionaire owners who've seen ungodly rates of return on these teams

a. No one is saying "think of the owners" other than in the context of "why would they do that".

b. There is no ungodly rate of return unless they sell. They own a business that profits or loses on the year. The Flames have done both over the years.

[Jiri Hrdina]

Originally Posted by PaperBagger'14

If that were true, wouldn’t the owners try to build a championship team? The flames seem to operate on a “make the playoffs and anything can happen”, which isn’t a very champion style mindset.
[/URL]

They can want to win a championship and just have a flawed idea of how to do that.

[Robbob]

Here I thought the thread was going to be about Flames fans coming together.

[Ped]

Meh It's probably been said somewhere between Take Back Alberta and whatever else is being floated, but fans don't need a union. All they have to do is stop supporting.



Now, fans are not a monolith, but if your franchise sucks enough, people stop going. If your costs are too high for the average fan, people stop going. If you're charging high prices of crappy nachos, people will stop buying htem. All of them? No. A lot of them? Sometimes, yes.

[bizaro86]

Originally Posted by White Out 403

In my 42 years of living I've never once heard he word farrago. I'm sorry that seems weird to you.

Same meaning as gallimaufry

[CF84]

Originally Posted by bizaro86

Same meaning as gallimaufry

What an interesting poecilonym!

[Bingo]

Originally Posted by Monahammer

That's not the only way you can derive money out of capital gains in an ownership position. No doubt the owners have benefitted substantially from the value of the franchise increasing so dramatically over the last 20 years.

Agreed that there's a vanity or club like element to owning a sports franchise, too.

Highly doubtful we see the value drop away. Especially considering the new arena deal, which historically has greatly bolstered franchise valuation.

How does he derive value out of the team being more without selling it?

[Bingo]

Originally Posted by White Out 403

wont someone please think of the billionaire owners who've seen ungodly rates of return on these teams

Not seeing anyone worrying about or defending NHL ownership.

[White Out 403]

Originally Posted by Bingo

How does he derive value out of the team being more without selling it?

I don't know if this is a genuine question or not, but people borrow against the value of unsold and unrealized gains all the time. Elon Musk did this very famously with twitter, leveraging his stock in tesla as collateral. Rich people get richer with this kind of crap constantly

[White Out 403]

Here's an article about it

https://www.washingtonpost.com/techn...nancing-tesla/