Israel declares war on Hamas

[Fuzz]

Originally Posted by Beninho

You are amazing at putting words in peoples mouths. If you and the other pro-Palestinian users in this thread want to continuously throw out words like genocide and apartheid without any evidence then go ahead. If you did not know this, generally in genocides the amount of people being killed matters and in this case it does not even come close to the disproportionate mass killings of any other genocide. Israel is attempting to eradicate Hamas, it is not trying to eradicate the Palestinians as a people. If you want to question how the IDF is currently doing that then sure that’s fine. If you think the IDF is not doing enough to protect civilians in Gaza then sure also fine to think that. But to act like it’s a genocide is completely inaccurate. It is either the most unique and “special genocide” that has occurred in human history, or it is not a genocide. It’s a war, civilians die, it is a terrible product of war but it still is not a genocide. If it is then there should be a complete re-analysis of the word and probably add in thousands of other wars that I guess are now genocides.

Uh huh, putting words...I'm not "pro Palestinian" I'm against murdering innocent people anywhere. You are the one attempting to justify the murders, not me. Feel free to examine your own views on that. An eye for an eye and all that bible stuff...

[Beninho]

Originally Posted by Fuzz

Uh huh, putting words...I'm not "pro Palestinian" I'm against murdering innocent people anywhere. You are the one attempting to justify the murders, not me. Feel free to examine your own views on that. An eye for an eye and all that bible stuff...

I am not religious so no idea why you are telling me that. It’s a war, innocents die, it’s the reality of the world we live in. Blame Hamas for breaking the ceasefire.

[afc wimbledon]

Originally Posted by zunie75

Exactly. And this is why peace will never be an option. Regardless of the outcome of eradicating Hamas, the end result is more Muslims are now dead and thousands more will grow up hating Israel and the West.

I am Muslim, born here and not raised religious. I'll be honest, I don't care about Palestine or the Arab world, hell i don't really care about islamophobia as I have not experienced it. But when Israel or the U.S go to war against Muslim nations, it always feels like a personal attack even if the initial reason is to combat atrocities caused by terrorism. Conflicts like this seem to bring out feelings of being marginalized and cast a shadow over all Muslims. Muslims are clearly very tired of being at the center of so many global conflicts. Its easy to see then why Muslims all over the world are protesting and not acknowledge the act of terrorism.

Even though I know that Hamas committed an act of terrorism, its hard not to look at what's happening to the Palestinians losing their lives and feel, if Israel is so much more powerful and and so "just", then why are they holding the Palestinian people hostage in order to get their own hostages released. Then we have the media spin game. Seeing very clear biased reporting also leads to the idea in Muslim minds that the world is against them.

I'm going to go home tonight, have a crown and coke and watch hockey. But if I feel this way thousands of miles away with no connection to Palestine at all, then imagine the hatred that people in the region must really feel and will continue to feel, likely forever.

I think if you're Israel, Jewish in general, you know they will always hate you, nothing Israel does will ever stop it's neighbours hating them, wishing for their utter destruction, Jewish history before Israel even existed makes that obvious, at least if they fear you as well as hate you your kids are safer

[WCW Nitro]

You know, I see a lot of hand waving and too bad ,so sad about Palestinians being killed because it is just the cost of war. Why is this never applied in the opposite direction though, why is it never well building settlements and blockading a population will also inevitably lead to attrocities being committed? it seems as though the civilians on one side are seen as more expendable than the other side.

[afc wimbledon]

Originally Posted by WCW Nitro

You know, I see a lot of hand waving and too bad ,so sad about Palestinians being killed because it is just the cost of war. Why is this never applied in the opposite direction though, why is it never well building settlements and blockading a population will also inevitably lead to attrocities being committed? it seems as though the civilians on one side are seen as more expendable than the other side.

Dude only one side has power, the other lost 3 wars and has no power, if you poke an 800 lb bear you are going to get eaten

[WCW Nitro]

Originally Posted by afc wimbledon

Dude only one side has power, the other lost 3 wars and has no power, if you poke an 800 lb bear you are going to get eaten

I don't know, the only strong people can kill civilians seems like a weird justification.

[afc wimbledon]

Originally Posted by WCW Nitro

I don't know, the only strong people can kill civilians seems like a weird justification.

oh both sides can and have killed civilians, it's just only one side can do it at will and in fearsome quantity, it's not a justification it's just reality, Israel can do what ever it wants, if you piss them off you are going to get curb stomped, the arab world might egg you on like a crowd of 14 year olds around a playground fight cheering for a 4th grader but in the end Gaza is on it's own taking on the 18 year old football captain after calling his mum a whore

And I will point it out again, this is what Hamas wanted from day one, they want Israel to kill tens of thousands of Gazans, this was always their plan not Israel's

[WCW Nitro]

Originally Posted by afc wimbledon

oh both sides can and have killed civilians, it's just only one side can do it at will and in fearsome quantity, it's not a justification it's just reality, Israel can do what ever it wants, if you piss them off you are going to get curb stomped, the arab world might egg you on like a crowd of 14 year olds around a playground fight cheering for a 4th grader but in the end Gaza is on it's own taking on the 18 year old football captain after calling his mum a whore

And I will point it out again, this is what Hamas wanted from day one, they want Israel to kill tens of thousands of Gazans, this was always their plan not Israel's

But I am talking about the reaction of some regular people- we didn't see the same might is right viewpoint when Russia invaded Ukraine. Oh, and Israeli officials have said they consider Hamas an asset to deny the Palestinians a state.

[FlameOn]

Originally Posted by WCW Nitro

But I am talking about the reaction of some regular people- we didn't see the same might is right viewpoint when Russia invaded Ukraine. Oh, and Israeli officials have said they consider Hamas an asset to deny the Palestinians a state.

And Hamas considers Netanyahu an ally because because he continues to keep them fat and funded. Netanyahu's trying to save his own skin from prosecution on numerous corruption charges and he needed an enemy to keep on saying "I can defend you from them" but that's all fallen apart now. The non-right wing Israelis under other administrations have wanted a state for Palestinians 5 separate times in the past.

[CliffFletcher]

Originally Posted by WCW Nitro

But I am talking about the reaction of some regular people- we didn't see the same might is right viewpoint when Russia invaded Ukraine. Oh, and Israeli officials have said they consider Hamas an asset to deny the Palestinians a state.

If the war in the Ukraine kicked off by Ukrainian commandoes infiltrating Russia and massacring over a thousand civilians in their homes, I think you’d find Western attitude towards Ukrainian civilians killed by Russian bombs in the counterattack very different from the attitude we see today.

[PepsiFree]

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

If the war in the Ukraine kicked off by Ukrainian commandoes infiltrating Russia and massacring over a thousand civilians in their homes, I think you’d find Western attitude towards Ukrainian civilians killed by Russian bombs in the counterattack very different from the attitude we see today.

Pretty quick identification and add of context from someone whose position was essentially “How come nobody cares about all these other things? Muslims are all the same!”

[jeffman]

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

If the war in the Ukraine kicked off by Ukrainian commandoes infiltrating Russia and massacring over a thousand civilians in their homes, I think you’d find Western attitude towards Ukrainian civilians killed by Russian bombs in the counterattack very different from the attitude we see today.

But Ukrainians have been shelling civilians in DPR for 8 years

[Fuzzy14]

You know, I see a lot of hand waving and too bad ,so sad about Palestinians being killed because it is just the cost of war. Why is this never applied in the opposite direction though, why is it never well building settlements and blockading a population will also inevitably lead to attrocities being committed? it seems as though the civilians on one side are seen as more expendable than the other side.

This false equivalency is nuclear grade stupid, and unfortunately permeates the narrative espoused by the supporters of Hamas. That you can't see the difference between the two is mind blowing.

[opendoor]

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

If the war in the Ukraine kicked off by Ukrainian commandoes infiltrating Russia and massacring over a thousand civilians in their homes, I think you’d find Western attitude towards Ukrainian civilians killed by Russian bombs in the counterattack very different from the attitude we see today.

Well, the internal Russian justification for the war was because Ukrainian attacks on the separatist areas had resulted in thousands of civilian deaths and almost a million refugees crossing into Russia. Does that mean people in Russia who support the war are being reasonable and logical? No, because even if one accepted that one-sided narrative as being true and the casualties in Donbas as being 100% Ukraine's fault, that still wouldn't excuse or justify Russia's actions. And the horrific violence inflicted on Israelis doesn't grant them immunity from criticism in how they respond.

The point you were responding to is a legitimate one. If people applied the logic they're using in this war to Ukraine, then Ukraine should have given up a long time ago.

[Sliver]

Originally Posted by Fuzzy14

This false equivalency is nuclear grade stupid, and unfortunately permeates the narrative espoused by the supporters of Hamas. That you can't see the difference between the two is mind blowing.

Does anybody support Hamas?

[Harry Lime]

Originally Posted by Sliver

Does anybody support Hamas?

Everybody, including most media sources, have been quick and consistent in calling Hamas terrorists. If you start calling their fighters, and the invaders of October 7th, the Palestinian Army, then the perspective changes. How much support does Hamas have from everyday Palestinians, at this point? If it's still enough for Hamas to win an election, then things get murky fast, and some of the support expressed in this thread comes very close to the support of Hamas, as a legitimate face of the people, as opposed to Hamas being the enemy of Palestine, which is how we have been painting them.

[blankall]

Originally Posted by FlameOn

And Hamas considers Netanyahu an ally because because he continues to keep them fat and funded. Netanyahu's trying to save his own skin from prosecution on numerous corruption charges and he needed an enemy to keep on saying "I can defend you from them" but that's all fallen apart now. The non-right wing Israelis under other administrations have wanted a state for Palestinians 5 separate times in the past.

Israel has never given any money to Hamas. They were holding money from donations and tax collections. When they don't provide that money immediately it's "Collective Punishment". When they do release the money they are responsible for funding Hamas.

[Fuzzy14]

Does anybody support Hamas?

I don't think that image sprung out of the ether. Though I will grant you that support for Hamas has declined since the days immediately following the conflict as some people have realized how moronic such support is.

[afc wimbledon]

Originally Posted by jeffman

But Ukrainians have been shelling civilians in DPR for 8 years

two points, first most in the west arent aware of the complexities of the Donbass but more to the point we all draw a difference between people getting killed in a war essentially by accident as opposed to being chased down at a music festival and raped and shot, their bodies stripped and dragged around a main street to be spat on, Hamas know this as well which is why they did this, if Hamas had sent their troops in to attack an army base the whole world including Israel would have likely had some admiration for a pointless suicidal act of bravery, Gaza wouldn't be being bombed, 10 to 20,000 Gazans wouldn't be about to die, at most the work permits would have been revoked and Gaza would get poorer again for 2 or 3 years

Hamas has signed Gaza's death warrant, they did it on purpose because they dont live in Gaza, tens of thousands of useful idiots will die directly, hundreds of thousands indirectly in the coming decades, Israel will never willingly provide power, water or jobs for Gaza now, however many survive the siege will have to rely on donations from the Arab world and the Egyptian border for everything no matter the outcome of anything else, if people in Gaza though it was bad before what the hell do they think the coming decades will bring? but Hamas won't suffer any of this, they will live the life of luxury in Qatar

[CliffFletcher]

Originally Posted by Sliver

Does anybody support Hamas?

Some activist groups expressed support in the wake of the Oct 7 attacks.

Instead of condemning and mourning the deadliest day for Jews since Israel’s founding, factions of the grassroots left appeared to celebrate the assault as an act of Palestinian heroism. The national chapter of Students for Justice in Palestine called it "a historic win for the Palestinian resistance." A coalition of 34 Harvard student organizations issued a statement saying they "hold the Israeli regime entirely responsible for all unfolding violence." The Democratic Socialists of America promoted a pro-Palestinian rally in New York where attendees reportedly chanted “resistance is justified when people are occupied.” One was shown displaying a swastika. A Twitter account apparently belonging to Black Lives Matter Chicago posted an image of a paraglider with a Palestinian flag on X, appearing to celebrate the Hamas terrorists who descended to slaughter hundreds of Israelis at a music festival.

"The glorification and justification of violence against civilians is not something I've seen in this movement in the 25 years I’ve been looking at it," says Oren Segal, vice president of the Anti-Defamation League's (ADL) Center on Extremism...

https://time.com/6323730/hamas-attack-left-response/